World of Sand

[Nellisir]

...After all, if I remove air but then have people breathing from pouches with magical air, it's interesting but d&d has so many ways of being interesting that I don't need to hamstring myself so much.

This. It's a great concept, but it's so overwhelming that there's no room for anything else...and your players are going to ask the same obnoxious questions we're asking.

I'd keep the idea in some form, but tone it down a bit. Perhaps the normal water cycle exists, but there's also natural outcroppings of spongestone, which absorbs water and becomes waterstone. Large outcroppings of waterstone can support oasis and are a useful, portable means of transporting water (doesn't spill), but you've still got the natural water cycle & etc to depend on for larger settlements. Once a waterstone is drained, it becomes spongestone again and can be "refilled" (this might be one way of purifying water, actually - people in seaside settlements would value spongestone for it's ability to make salt water drinkable).

 

[wlmartin]

Yeah thanks

I have pretty much decided to go with the idea of an underground layer of caverns that support water (ie underground rivers)

However water stone could be a magical method of storing water, compressing it as since the heat levels I intend to expose my party to involves 3+ gallons of water per day each, a 3 day journey would be unceasingly without something to kick in

The rest of the design will be based mainly on the sandstorm supplement as it drives the story of a world exactly where I am going

 

[Jhaelen]

Telling people there is no water and miss out on the fact that people need to drink and survive breaks the illusion.

To be honest, when I read the thread title I imagined you were planning to use something similar to the elemental plane of earth as a campaign setting... Except for a few rare pockets of other elements, everything would be made from earthlike substances, including the inhabitants.

I really love the ideas put forward but on reflection I realize that it just might be too much home brew to take water out of the campaign as much as I am.

Like has been said, water is so integral to what we see as life that unless I remove the need for it, fudging the use of it just creates more problems than it's worth.

My plan instead is to keep with a desert world but put water underground.

Yup, I'd be immediately on board with this! Deriving too far from a 'default' biosphere is bound to create unforseen problems.

 

[wlmartin]

To be honest, when I read the thread title I imagined you were planning to use something similar to the elemental plane of earth as a campaign setting... Except for a few rare pockets of other elements, everything would be made from earthlike substances, including the inhabitants.
Yup, I'd be immediately on board with this! Deriving too far from a 'default' biosphere is bound to create unforseen problems.

I had some further thoughts, now have a rough template for the socio-dynamic of the region as follows (which fits in with waterstone somewhat)
- The world was once a normal material plane but a devastation occurred that sent everything into a sand world
- The world will be mostly sand but likely the settled areas will be in barren locations where the ground is less sandy and more rocky. I will justify settling in these areas because they are the lowest elevation (as higher you go, more sand you get) and thus closer to the underground water
- As said above, all water is underground in deep, deep down functioning like an aquifer. You can well down to it or there are areas where it is closer to the surface (and these are where settlements or wild fauna are found more often)
- I am including the sand-people race (Acertari (sp?)) as well as the Desert Goblins.
- There is no wood, this will create problems with building but the sand people will solve this will a part-sand/part crystal solution that creates a wood like material (this is something i am still figuring out)
- Dwarves will provide metal, they follow the typical dwarf model and live in whatever mountains there are, keeping to themselves
- Gnomes will be the traders, living nomadicly and acting as go betweens (likely controlling the sand/air transportation as part of their remit)
- Humans will be as humans usually are, the adaptable breed-like-bunnies race that takes up the most space
- Elves will be interesting, they will have retreated into cloud cities (on big rock motes in the sky) and they manufacture waterstone from magic thus creating an unending water source for themselves (allowing them to remain Xenophobic if they choose) as well as a tradeable resource
- No Half-Orcs
- Potentially some Half-elves but i want to reduce the half-breed in the game and simply replace half-elves or half-orcs with other races if i can
- Thinking about a Goliath Type
- Thinking about a snake/Yuanti and/or Lizardman type
- EDIT : In addition, water will still be traded (be it in barrels or in waterstone from the Elves) but it won't be a currency as that creates all sorts of issues i would just rather avoid. Instead it will be a trade good like food and depending on the need for it within the story, could well involve water merchants needing to be escorted or a theft of water. Waterstone by comparison will be a luxury, perhaps even a higher quality (like spring water) and although it will be traded, it wont constitute the majority of the economic model since Waterstone will be kept within the elven borders and they only trade for the small bits they want (bit of metal or such)
- Furthermore, this could evolve into a story dynamic where some elves provide waterstone creation as a service (esentialy just NPCs that convert spells into waterstone, much like a spellcaster NPC converts spells into gold as a service to others)

The rest will roll as you expect
Small settlements, seperated by vast seas of sand, conflict exists (often around sources of water or food) but due to the difficulty in maintaining an army across the desert, peace is a lot easier to maintain than war

Likely take a lot of the heat management, spells, feats, monsters etc from Sandstorm

POSSIBLY, removing gods and replacing with a faith system (where I can assign domains based on organizational focus rather than a guy in the sky giving spells) and i am on the fence with this as it pivots on if i want the plane to be closed to outsiders (demons, angels, celestials, devils) or open, perhaps they dont care about the world at all or anymoer

Still up in the air

Possibly build in a history that involves giants

 

[Umbran]

- The world will be mostly sand but likely the settled areas will be in barren locations where the ground is less sandy and more rocky. I will justify settling in these areas because they are the lowest elevation (as higher you go, more sand you get) and thus closer to the underground water

Note that sand will tend to blow and flow and fill in low-lying areas, unless something keeps them clear. I take this as an opportunity to create something to keep these areas clear.

- There is no wood, this will create problems with building but the sand people will solve this will a part-sand/part crystal solution that creates a wood like material (this is something i am still figuring out)

I don't think "concrete" needs a whole lot of extra thought. Yes, it takes water - that limits building.

I think the question you'll need to answer is this - where does the food come from? In a full-on sand desert, water alone isn't enough - the sand doesn't contain enough organic matter to grow things. So, what is your world's agricultural base?

 

[wlmartin]

I thought about that and feel that I may need to tie in some more arable land, perhaps major areas of just dry land which gets some irrigation from oasis or underground spring

I can always come up with food that is tied to the environment so fruit that only needs a small amount of water rather than an abundance

I feel I likely have the groundwork and can fill in the gaps with acceptable belief

 

[Umbran]

I thought about that and feel that I may need to tie in some more arable land, perhaps major areas of just dry land which gets some irrigation from oasis or underground spring

I can always come up with food that is tied to the environment so fruit that only needs a small amount of water rather than an abundance

I feel I likely have the groundwork and can fill in the gaps with acceptable belief

I agree - the situation you have laid out should work fine. I'm merely asking questions that the players will ask, or that will inform next steps.

Your populations will tend to center around the food and water sources, for example - where those stony low areas are is irrelevant, folks will go with tend cities before they try to carry food and water over expanses of deathly-dry desert.

It would sound like you have a fine setup for a city-state style of culture, with nomads travelling between the oases.

Races suited for underground living (like dwarves and gnomes) are going to find or create caverns near underground water sources. They may be able to produce some fungal materials that would replace many things we take for granted (at a higher price) - poles for tents made out of fungal "wood" for example, ropes out of fungus fibers, and so on.

 

[wlmartin]

Thanks and yes I know, if I get the obvious questions answered (where do I eat, drink) then the more nuanced questions (like how does the specific elements of the ecology work) I can use some artistic license for

Good idea on the fungal wood, I can likely create some cactus like to replace wood

One idea I had was to create a group called formers. Elves who used advanced magic to terraform barren land to arable land. They then guard this ability and the more prosperous cities are ones that the elf formers have aided

This is something I am not 100% on since once I start creating these oasis cities with farmland, trees, Arable ground etc using this magic, what effect does this have on the overall ecology, how does this area stay sand free and is irrigation strong enough to protect food grown.

I then came to the realisation that it's shoehorning in easy food to my waste world. I'd have to explain too much and by the time I have tweaked it, I might as well just made it how I initially wanted

All barren lands
Water comes from some random oasis, springs or underwater sources
Food comes from desert grown fruits, veg that can handle tuff heat and just need some mild irrigation.

Waterstone will likely still exist but as a technology to condense water for easy transport

I am looking to create a story arc involving the sand shapers and the walkers of the waste. It will be a power struggle that should give me some mileage for adventures

It will be very point of light driven. Each settlement is safe harbour. You get food and water in these settlements and by travelling further away from them you risk the dangers of the wasteland.

Will you get attacked by undead seeking out your water?
Will a sand worm devour you?
Will you get lost in the featureless sand dunes?
Will the heat or dehydration get you?

So why would anyone travel away from safety?
Adventure ... Lost cities and tombs, abandoned settlements, epic monsters are all a risk but the reward comes from what you can discover in these places and since the fear of visiting them is quite obvious, there is little competition for adventure

The great thing for me is that I can just take a blank map, wave around my hand and point to instantly produce an adventure location.

The wastes aren't really mapped well, some key locations are mapped but these maps are often either rare to find or in the memory of guides who can take you there for a fee

Inventing locations will be very easy and you can explain so much with the assistance of the terrain as to why no one has found it before

I am hoping to keep it all desert themed, reskinned mainstream monsters as desert equivalent and use the many available already

Now I have my high concept, I need to start drilling down to the classes, races, countries, culture etc... But that's what obsidian portal is for

Thanks all

 

[Wicht]

Some ideas... (partially echoing Nellisir)

The planet has to have water, but what you want is a way to encapsulate the water away from rivers and lakes and oceans so that it is hard to access, but still available in some fashion to support life.

I think you might consider Dune as something of an inspiration here, with a biological factor stealing the water which would otherwise be plentiful in the ecosystem (ie. the sandworms were responsible for trapping water underground.)

Going with your rock idea, perhaps the rocks steal a certain amount of water from the air, but release it slowly over time when saturated, so that a waterstone sitting on the sand would support small amounts of plant life as it slowly leaked the water out. Larger stones would be the source of various oasis and mined stones would be used to provide water for homes. The stones suck enough water out of the air to prevent rain, which prevents water movement and bodies of water, but provide enough to their immediate vicinity via "sweat" that life is sustained.

The rocks still remain the most valuable resource on the planet, but by allowing them to continually sweat you create a plausible scenario by which life is sustained. Besides plants which have adapted to grow right near or on the rocks, small animals have learned to drink the sweat. Larger animals, all carnivores, derive their fluids from the bodies of small animals. Certain plants (like cacti) also develop to store water inside them.

Intelligent races, of course, learn to use the rocks, increase the sweat of the rocks by applying heat (which drains the rocks, but does not destroy them), or take water from plants. Farming should be minimal throughout the setting, except by magic. Population would necessarily be scarce in almost every region, for nearly every species.

As in dune, technology can also be developed which, like the rocks, takes water from the atmosphere, allowing it to be condensed and collected.

 

[wlmartin]

Some ideas... (partially echoing Nellisir)

The planet has to have water, but what you want is a way to encapsulate the water away from rivers and lakes and oceans so that it is hard to access, but still available in some fashion to support life.

I think you might consider Dune as something of an inspiration here, with a biological factor stealing the water which would otherwise be plentiful in the ecosystem (ie. the sandworms were responsible for trapping water underground.)

Going with your rock idea, perhaps the rocks steal a certain amount of water from the air, but release it slowly over time when saturated, so that a waterstone sitting on the sand would support small amounts of plant life as it slowly leaked the water out. Larger stones would be the source of various oasis and mined stones would be used to provide water for homes. The stones suck enough water out of the air to prevent rain, which prevents water movement and bodies of water, but provide enough to their immediate vicinity via "sweat" that life is sustained.

The rocks still remain the most valuable resource on the planet, but by allowing them to continually sweat you create a plausible scenario by which life is sustained. Besides plants which have adapted to grow right near or on the rocks, small animals have learned to drink the sweat. Larger animals, all carnivores, derive their fluids from the bodies of small animals. Certain plants (like cacti) also develop to store water inside them.

Intelligent races, of course, learn to use the rocks, increase the sweat of the rocks by applying heat (which drains the rocks, but does not destroy them), or take water from plants. Farming should be minimal throughout the setting, except by magic. Population would necessarily be scarce in almost every region, for nearly every species.

As in dune, technology can also be developed which, like the rocks, takes water from the atmosphere, allowing it to be condensed and collected.

I appreciate your post, I really loved the idea of waterstone as some kind of way of sealing in a commodity and it being traded.
However it just created more problems than its benefits and I think I will scrap it.
Commoditizing an essential resource doesn’t make as much sense as it originaly did, largely because you have to rethink the economics to a degree that turn the game from being a fun adventure platform to a “spreadsheet gaming” style adventure about maths, facts and figures.

I am sure there are ways to justify waterstone as a commodity resource and making it work in the economics but it makes a lot more sense just to make water rare.
That way you create an environment where those who couldn’t manage water died off, those that could stuck around and to do so made sure they kept close to clean abundant water.

Its understandable that life would thrive around water sources and wither away from them

I have far more interesting things to worry about adding complexity to (villains, organizations, factions etc) than to screw with simple accepted facts of the world.

It would be like if I completed respeced how combat and magic worked.. at some point it stops becoming D&D and becomes another D20 clone