Phlebas
First Post
had a rogue IMC with soften earth and stone - knowing the difference in paving between main streets & back streets became essential description!
Worldbuilding Starting City
had a rogue IMC with soften earth and stone - knowing the difference in paving between main streets & back streets became essential description!
Nyeshet
First Post
A lot of this really depends upon how large a city you are making.
(warning, somewhat longish post follows)
Is it fairly large, the last major outpost known for several days (weeks?) journey (at least as far as the city itself knows)? If so, has it grown this large, or was it this large or larger to begin with?
One should note that, historically, cities only gained 100k+ people in relatively recent times. In the past their numbers tended to range from 2k to 90k - and for an example of the latter is Florence just prior to the Black Death plague, which halved its population in 3 years as I recall. Also, until recent centuries cities were population sinks. They could not maintain a steady population without continuous immigrants from outlying regions (often escaped serfs, freemen peasants seeking a better / safer life, etc). Those immigrants often received menial jobs, while their children and (more often / likely) grandchildren - apprenticed to trades in the city. Thus within a few generations they might no longer be a part of the menial level of society - or perhaps only just high enough above it to look down upon those 'outsiders'.
Those who headed merchant guilds - which were often also in charge of local banks / money lenders and had quite a bit of influence over local artisan guilds such as smiths and weavers - were princes by blood or by fact (ie: merchant princes). If they were not noble to begin with, they often became noble through marriage sooner or later (marrying into a poor but noble family, thus gaining a title and granting said family some wealth). The end result was a few families that were upper class, a growing low to middle class population of artisans and merchants, and a very low and populous menial class.
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All that said, during the bronze age and during the dark age, most cities had only a few thousand people and covered (significantly) less than a square mile. They often had a wall or two for protection (the second wall constructed once the population had exceeded the capacity within the first wall). They were self-sufficient city-states, taking in grain, produce, and so forth from surrounding lands in exchange for protection during hard times (ie: raiders threaten, rural population seeks safety inside the walls). There were typically two powers within the cities: religious and secular (high priest and king). Sometimes these were united in a single 'priest-king'. At other times one was merely a figurehead - either powerless or controlled by the other. And hidden in the shadow of these two powers was often one or two more: guild leaders and crime leaders.
So, if I were building a town in the middle of no where, I would presume first that it is not quite surrounded immediately by forests and wilderness. Instead, for perhaps a day's ride from the city (about a 20-30 mile radius from the walls) there were outlying fiends, orchards, pastures, etc. The city itself would be quite crowded, often with quite narrow streets. Despite this, there would be at least one major market plaza, a few major roadways (with some building arching over said roadways, perhaps), and several areas given over to non-resident structures such as large buildings only associated with holding grain for lean years, animal pins, and so forth. Perhaps some of these are partly or wholely underground (bronze age turkey - near cappadocia - had several instances of this, although the regions for such were typically quite arid - no threat of flooding for example).
There would be at least two - maybe three or four - very large structures, likely associated with the power bases, so perhaps a temple / cathedral / ziggarrut and a keep / palace. The region of the (likely inner) city where merchant princes and minor nobles live will likely be (relatively) opulent - large two and three story houses with cellars, courtyards, etc. Most of the rest of the city will have small one story houses or will be narrow two stories in which the first story holds the business and the residents sleep above.
A sewer system might exist, but unless the city is large the 'pipes' used will be quite narrow - at best perhaps enough to crawl through or otherwise unpassable. If the city was once larger, however, then the 'pipes' may be large enough to walk through. In such a scenario, however, I would expect a third - fallen - wall, with ruins outside the second wall - menial laborers, vagabonds, petty criminals, and perhaps wanderers (gypsy-ish or poorer caravans) living outside the second wall.
There will be many menial jobs available that are often forgotten in modern times - example: lamp-lighters who light the outside lamps at the evening, replacing the candles or pitch within said lamps every so often, and so forth. Likely only the major roadways have such lamps - and perhaps only in the inner city inside the first wall. If the streets are paved (again, likely only in the inner city and along the major roadways), then street repairmen will be in evidence every so often, repairing this or that area as needed. The buildings are mostly made of wood and daub, with larger and more important ones (and the city walls) made of stone.
As this is a city surrounded by nearby wilderness, with only vague ideas as to the locations of more distant cities based upon half-accurate information from the few caravans that dare to traverse the wilderness, one would expect a certain military leaning. The nobles are not just sitting at desk jobs, taking in the tithes and money. Likely a part of every day - or at least every week - is spent in serious training. In many times and places, a man might leave his title, lands, etc not necessarily to the eldest son, but instead to the son considered strongest / healthiest / best in arms / and so forth. Sometimes immediately after a father's death, the sons would fight amongst themselves - literally - for the title, lands, etc - and the allies and friends of the family would not interfere and would generally accept the outcome, as the one that won was best able to defeat his brothers - thus proving his ability to defend and thus protect his lands. With the threat of bloodshed at the time of transition of power, likely all the sons practice combat to some degree.
Another aspect to consider is how potent is magic in your campaign world. In my worlds, I purposefully raise all spells that allow raising of dead, teleportation, etc by a level or two, and I often delay casters in other ways as well (9th lv spells at lv 19, 8th at lv 17, etc, but giving lore and a bonus feat at first level to make up for reduction of 1st lv spells at 1st level; I also used the cloistered cleric for priests, so that they are less combat oriented but gave them lay on hands as well). This is a dark age - spell knowledge is lost or waning, perhaps even the deities are withholding some of their power for some reason. Arcanists other than bards, sorcerers, and warlocks are at a disadvantage, having to create most of their spells or search for them in dangerous ruins.
Or, conversely, you might have a local wizards college - a third (fifth?) power source in your city. It has few professors - perhaps only half a dozen at most, none over level 7 or 9 perhaps, but with its resources a wizard might gain spells at something resembling a normal rate. Or perhaps it is a bard's school, where a retired bard (7+ level) teaches his trade to a half dozen or so apprentices, only one or two showing any talent to perhaps one day replace him.
The bard himself may have a part time job entertaining the local noble court with music, illusions, and enchantments - or perhaps has a secretive position on the court in which a noble pays him well to use charms and compulsions upon a more influential noble, so that decisions are made in the favor of the bard's employer.
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Don't forget about factions within each power source. The local lord might perhaps be an earl, marquis, duke, or prince, but likely there are 2d4 other local noble families - one or two being distant branches of the local lord's family, a couple of the others also distantly related, and one or more that are relatively new - risen merchant princes, a noble from a distant land (is he really a noble? or maybe he is noble, but is he what he seems to be), and so forth. These factions may have different opinions on how to run things. One of those related-to-the-local-lord families might secretly (or openly) believe that an ancestor of theirs was supposed to rule, and so the local lord is the descendant of an usurper. Or perhaps they are planning a marriage with another of the local families - the better to gain enough power / influence to 'guide' the local lord (or his heir, if the lord dies while the heir is young).
The nobles are not the only ones with factions. The church might also have a faction or two. If it worships a pantheon, likely there are several smaller shrines / temples dedicated to various individual deities, as well as local secret (and not so secret) cults dedicated to this or that deity. In the main temple various deities' priests might join and separate from various factions pushing for this or that to occur. Or, if the pantheon is worshiped as a whole or if the temple focuses upon only a single deity, then their might be a traditional faction and another favoring more radical views of the dogma of the deity. Perhaps the center of the religion was in a far off city from which they now cut off. Entirely on their own, some see it as their duty to continue as they had been, others see it as an opportunity to change aspects of the belief they personally disagreed upon. And each of these religious factions likely have various nobles aligned with them (openly or secretly - or both, with some family members of a noble family openly aligning with them and others secretly, so that if the faction falls utterly (perhaps prosecuted for heresy), the family retains its power under those that pretended not to follow.
And, of course, there will certainly be at least two or three crime lords - perhaps separated by the city walls, perhaps by city district, perhaps by some other means, and likely there will be several guild heads - with various guilds aligning to work for or against other guilds, or perhaps trades guilds aligned to work against merchants' guilds in an almost unionist manner. Or perhaps the merchant's guild is aligned with the most popular / wealthiest trade guild, and the other guilds band together to maintain their rights.
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If trade exists with distant cities, what is your city known for? Is it a city of trades men, where smithing or dying or weaving or gem cutting produces goods to be shipped afar for rare goods in return? Is it a location for trading, such that a couple times a year - or perhaps only once every three or four years (as was the case for some middle ages cities) several caravans from many distant cities gather to exchange wares? Perhaps it is known for certain ores or gems - which in raw or finished state are then shipped afar.
Is the city on or near a river? That would enhance the trading factor significantly, but it might also open the city to raiding pirates from time to time, necessitating a small navy of a few small but hardy ships. It might also result in a flooding of the sewers every so often, forcing criminals and creatures within out amongst the population for a brief time. It would lastly allow for a major fishing industry. Perhaps if along a coast (of lake or sea), it could allow for a pearl industry.
Maybe the city is only a stop along a major but uncommonly used trade route? Foreign armies might march along such, and animals - including monsters - might find it a useful route, as it increases the ease and speed of travel notably compared to wandering through the forest.
Or is it truly isolated - no caravans have arrived in decades, no major roadway or river nearby to allow far and relatively ease of travel exploration, no supplies to depend upon but what it might make for itself, and so on. Note that in this instance money is not an issue. Barter usually exists when there is no outside trade to invigorate and necessitate coinage transactions. Also, coins were often used to advertise the city - or its ruler or ruling church or guild - to distant lands. If everyone nearby sees the local lord from time to time - riding in state along the roadways as he goes to inspect the guard and the walls, riding out to the local forest for the hunt, perhaps holding a festival in the plaza to celebrate and introduce to the city his new born son, and so forth - then there is less reason / need to advertise his face or coat of arms to the populace. Also, as has been said before, one cannot eat money. The grain in the silos are of far more importance, as they will allow him to provide - and more thoroughly rule - during the lean times, as his representatives hand out grain to the populous.
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Where did the adventurers come from? Are the strangers - a foreign band recently arrived, viewed with suspicion by most? Will they need to prove themselves to the locals, pay special tithes / taxes to the lords when buying goods, have a less than fair exchange when converting the coins of distant lands to local coinage (if such exists)? Or perhaps they are guards of a rare caravan that has just arrived in town, mostly overlooked as just part of the caravan in the excitement the town feels over the opportunity for news and new wares from the caravan. Perhaps the leader of the caravan will allow (or insist) the party accompany him while he goes to speak with the local nobles and merchants' guild (protection, a show of power, etc).
Are they locals? Does the local baker recall one of them trying to take a small loaf of sweet bread back when he was seven or eight and still laugh about how easily he was caught or the tall tale he told while trying to keep out of trouble? Does the fighter have a mentor amongst the town guard, a grisled veteran he perhaps looks up to almost as a second father (or is the guard perhaps an uncle)? Maybe the cleric is a mid-level functionary at the local temple with occasional duties that need to be performed amongst the populace? Perhaps the bard recently completed his education at the local college or with the local bard that entertains the noble court.
The rogue might be an agent / enforcer / etc of the local crime lord, or perhaps became a party member at the request of said lord, the better to keep an eye on what the party is doing, reporting back every so often so that the crime lord might take advantage of upcoming plans of the party. (example: the party decides to do something on one side of town that is likely to cause a ruckus - the crime lord takes advantage by setting up a hit or robbery on the other side of town at the same time. If there are two or three crime lords, the rogue might report to one whatever the party learns of the others or their plans.
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There are a lot of things to consider when starting in a PoL town setting. There might be numerous and interesting adventures just over the horizon, but quite a bit can also exist just within the town itself.
As a last example: consider my earlier statement of a town with three walls - the outermost one mostly collapsed and sparsely inhabited by members of the lowest class. Perhaps the group might set up a base in a re-fortified structure among the many and mostly collapsed buildings - only to have a part of the cellar collapse into a second, lower, cellar. This hidden cellar might have all sorts of forgotten information that could prove useful adventure hooks (semi-accurate maps of the past, a journal detailing how the local lord's family came to power, a map of the inner city - including forgotten structures now buried, and so forth). It might also have collapsed into a forgotten section of the sewer system, which if large enough could allow access to forgotten rooms and secret passages into structures inside the city.
All sorts of interesting things might be found.
Consider also this link for some ideas as to possible city maps. The maps are (very) old fashioned and of cities from ~1200 to ~1800, but they give a nice overview of the major roadways and structures, at least, and thus provide a possible template for your city design.
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/search_a_z.html
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/
(warning, somewhat longish post follows)
Is it fairly large, the last major outpost known for several days (weeks?) journey (at least as far as the city itself knows)? If so, has it grown this large, or was it this large or larger to begin with?
One should note that, historically, cities only gained 100k+ people in relatively recent times. In the past their numbers tended to range from 2k to 90k - and for an example of the latter is Florence just prior to the Black Death plague, which halved its population in 3 years as I recall. Also, until recent centuries cities were population sinks. They could not maintain a steady population without continuous immigrants from outlying regions (often escaped serfs, freemen peasants seeking a better / safer life, etc). Those immigrants often received menial jobs, while their children and (more often / likely) grandchildren - apprenticed to trades in the city. Thus within a few generations they might no longer be a part of the menial level of society - or perhaps only just high enough above it to look down upon those 'outsiders'.
Those who headed merchant guilds - which were often also in charge of local banks / money lenders and had quite a bit of influence over local artisan guilds such as smiths and weavers - were princes by blood or by fact (ie: merchant princes). If they were not noble to begin with, they often became noble through marriage sooner or later (marrying into a poor but noble family, thus gaining a title and granting said family some wealth). The end result was a few families that were upper class, a growing low to middle class population of artisans and merchants, and a very low and populous menial class.
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All that said, during the bronze age and during the dark age, most cities had only a few thousand people and covered (significantly) less than a square mile. They often had a wall or two for protection (the second wall constructed once the population had exceeded the capacity within the first wall). They were self-sufficient city-states, taking in grain, produce, and so forth from surrounding lands in exchange for protection during hard times (ie: raiders threaten, rural population seeks safety inside the walls). There were typically two powers within the cities: religious and secular (high priest and king). Sometimes these were united in a single 'priest-king'. At other times one was merely a figurehead - either powerless or controlled by the other. And hidden in the shadow of these two powers was often one or two more: guild leaders and crime leaders.
So, if I were building a town in the middle of no where, I would presume first that it is not quite surrounded immediately by forests and wilderness. Instead, for perhaps a day's ride from the city (about a 20-30 mile radius from the walls) there were outlying fiends, orchards, pastures, etc. The city itself would be quite crowded, often with quite narrow streets. Despite this, there would be at least one major market plaza, a few major roadways (with some building arching over said roadways, perhaps), and several areas given over to non-resident structures such as large buildings only associated with holding grain for lean years, animal pins, and so forth. Perhaps some of these are partly or wholely underground (bronze age turkey - near cappadocia - had several instances of this, although the regions for such were typically quite arid - no threat of flooding for example).
There would be at least two - maybe three or four - very large structures, likely associated with the power bases, so perhaps a temple / cathedral / ziggarrut and a keep / palace. The region of the (likely inner) city where merchant princes and minor nobles live will likely be (relatively) opulent - large two and three story houses with cellars, courtyards, etc. Most of the rest of the city will have small one story houses or will be narrow two stories in which the first story holds the business and the residents sleep above.
A sewer system might exist, but unless the city is large the 'pipes' used will be quite narrow - at best perhaps enough to crawl through or otherwise unpassable. If the city was once larger, however, then the 'pipes' may be large enough to walk through. In such a scenario, however, I would expect a third - fallen - wall, with ruins outside the second wall - menial laborers, vagabonds, petty criminals, and perhaps wanderers (gypsy-ish or poorer caravans) living outside the second wall.
There will be many menial jobs available that are often forgotten in modern times - example: lamp-lighters who light the outside lamps at the evening, replacing the candles or pitch within said lamps every so often, and so forth. Likely only the major roadways have such lamps - and perhaps only in the inner city inside the first wall. If the streets are paved (again, likely only in the inner city and along the major roadways), then street repairmen will be in evidence every so often, repairing this or that area as needed. The buildings are mostly made of wood and daub, with larger and more important ones (and the city walls) made of stone.
As this is a city surrounded by nearby wilderness, with only vague ideas as to the locations of more distant cities based upon half-accurate information from the few caravans that dare to traverse the wilderness, one would expect a certain military leaning. The nobles are not just sitting at desk jobs, taking in the tithes and money. Likely a part of every day - or at least every week - is spent in serious training. In many times and places, a man might leave his title, lands, etc not necessarily to the eldest son, but instead to the son considered strongest / healthiest / best in arms / and so forth. Sometimes immediately after a father's death, the sons would fight amongst themselves - literally - for the title, lands, etc - and the allies and friends of the family would not interfere and would generally accept the outcome, as the one that won was best able to defeat his brothers - thus proving his ability to defend and thus protect his lands. With the threat of bloodshed at the time of transition of power, likely all the sons practice combat to some degree.
Another aspect to consider is how potent is magic in your campaign world. In my worlds, I purposefully raise all spells that allow raising of dead, teleportation, etc by a level or two, and I often delay casters in other ways as well (9th lv spells at lv 19, 8th at lv 17, etc, but giving lore and a bonus feat at first level to make up for reduction of 1st lv spells at 1st level; I also used the cloistered cleric for priests, so that they are less combat oriented but gave them lay on hands as well). This is a dark age - spell knowledge is lost or waning, perhaps even the deities are withholding some of their power for some reason. Arcanists other than bards, sorcerers, and warlocks are at a disadvantage, having to create most of their spells or search for them in dangerous ruins.
Or, conversely, you might have a local wizards college - a third (fifth?) power source in your city. It has few professors - perhaps only half a dozen at most, none over level 7 or 9 perhaps, but with its resources a wizard might gain spells at something resembling a normal rate. Or perhaps it is a bard's school, where a retired bard (7+ level) teaches his trade to a half dozen or so apprentices, only one or two showing any talent to perhaps one day replace him.
The bard himself may have a part time job entertaining the local noble court with music, illusions, and enchantments - or perhaps has a secretive position on the court in which a noble pays him well to use charms and compulsions upon a more influential noble, so that decisions are made in the favor of the bard's employer.
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Don't forget about factions within each power source. The local lord might perhaps be an earl, marquis, duke, or prince, but likely there are 2d4 other local noble families - one or two being distant branches of the local lord's family, a couple of the others also distantly related, and one or more that are relatively new - risen merchant princes, a noble from a distant land (is he really a noble? or maybe he is noble, but is he what he seems to be), and so forth. These factions may have different opinions on how to run things. One of those related-to-the-local-lord families might secretly (or openly) believe that an ancestor of theirs was supposed to rule, and so the local lord is the descendant of an usurper. Or perhaps they are planning a marriage with another of the local families - the better to gain enough power / influence to 'guide' the local lord (or his heir, if the lord dies while the heir is young).
The nobles are not the only ones with factions. The church might also have a faction or two. If it worships a pantheon, likely there are several smaller shrines / temples dedicated to various individual deities, as well as local secret (and not so secret) cults dedicated to this or that deity. In the main temple various deities' priests might join and separate from various factions pushing for this or that to occur. Or, if the pantheon is worshiped as a whole or if the temple focuses upon only a single deity, then their might be a traditional faction and another favoring more radical views of the dogma of the deity. Perhaps the center of the religion was in a far off city from which they now cut off. Entirely on their own, some see it as their duty to continue as they had been, others see it as an opportunity to change aspects of the belief they personally disagreed upon. And each of these religious factions likely have various nobles aligned with them (openly or secretly - or both, with some family members of a noble family openly aligning with them and others secretly, so that if the faction falls utterly (perhaps prosecuted for heresy), the family retains its power under those that pretended not to follow.
And, of course, there will certainly be at least two or three crime lords - perhaps separated by the city walls, perhaps by city district, perhaps by some other means, and likely there will be several guild heads - with various guilds aligning to work for or against other guilds, or perhaps trades guilds aligned to work against merchants' guilds in an almost unionist manner. Or perhaps the merchant's guild is aligned with the most popular / wealthiest trade guild, and the other guilds band together to maintain their rights.
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If trade exists with distant cities, what is your city known for? Is it a city of trades men, where smithing or dying or weaving or gem cutting produces goods to be shipped afar for rare goods in return? Is it a location for trading, such that a couple times a year - or perhaps only once every three or four years (as was the case for some middle ages cities) several caravans from many distant cities gather to exchange wares? Perhaps it is known for certain ores or gems - which in raw or finished state are then shipped afar.
Is the city on or near a river? That would enhance the trading factor significantly, but it might also open the city to raiding pirates from time to time, necessitating a small navy of a few small but hardy ships. It might also result in a flooding of the sewers every so often, forcing criminals and creatures within out amongst the population for a brief time. It would lastly allow for a major fishing industry. Perhaps if along a coast (of lake or sea), it could allow for a pearl industry.
Maybe the city is only a stop along a major but uncommonly used trade route? Foreign armies might march along such, and animals - including monsters - might find it a useful route, as it increases the ease and speed of travel notably compared to wandering through the forest.
Or is it truly isolated - no caravans have arrived in decades, no major roadway or river nearby to allow far and relatively ease of travel exploration, no supplies to depend upon but what it might make for itself, and so on. Note that in this instance money is not an issue. Barter usually exists when there is no outside trade to invigorate and necessitate coinage transactions. Also, coins were often used to advertise the city - or its ruler or ruling church or guild - to distant lands. If everyone nearby sees the local lord from time to time - riding in state along the roadways as he goes to inspect the guard and the walls, riding out to the local forest for the hunt, perhaps holding a festival in the plaza to celebrate and introduce to the city his new born son, and so forth - then there is less reason / need to advertise his face or coat of arms to the populace. Also, as has been said before, one cannot eat money. The grain in the silos are of far more importance, as they will allow him to provide - and more thoroughly rule - during the lean times, as his representatives hand out grain to the populous.
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Where did the adventurers come from? Are the strangers - a foreign band recently arrived, viewed with suspicion by most? Will they need to prove themselves to the locals, pay special tithes / taxes to the lords when buying goods, have a less than fair exchange when converting the coins of distant lands to local coinage (if such exists)? Or perhaps they are guards of a rare caravan that has just arrived in town, mostly overlooked as just part of the caravan in the excitement the town feels over the opportunity for news and new wares from the caravan. Perhaps the leader of the caravan will allow (or insist) the party accompany him while he goes to speak with the local nobles and merchants' guild (protection, a show of power, etc).
Are they locals? Does the local baker recall one of them trying to take a small loaf of sweet bread back when he was seven or eight and still laugh about how easily he was caught or the tall tale he told while trying to keep out of trouble? Does the fighter have a mentor amongst the town guard, a grisled veteran he perhaps looks up to almost as a second father (or is the guard perhaps an uncle)? Maybe the cleric is a mid-level functionary at the local temple with occasional duties that need to be performed amongst the populace? Perhaps the bard recently completed his education at the local college or with the local bard that entertains the noble court.
The rogue might be an agent / enforcer / etc of the local crime lord, or perhaps became a party member at the request of said lord, the better to keep an eye on what the party is doing, reporting back every so often so that the crime lord might take advantage of upcoming plans of the party. (example: the party decides to do something on one side of town that is likely to cause a ruckus - the crime lord takes advantage by setting up a hit or robbery on the other side of town at the same time. If there are two or three crime lords, the rogue might report to one whatever the party learns of the others or their plans.
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
There are a lot of things to consider when starting in a PoL town setting. There might be numerous and interesting adventures just over the horizon, but quite a bit can also exist just within the town itself.
As a last example: consider my earlier statement of a town with three walls - the outermost one mostly collapsed and sparsely inhabited by members of the lowest class. Perhaps the group might set up a base in a re-fortified structure among the many and mostly collapsed buildings - only to have a part of the cellar collapse into a second, lower, cellar. This hidden cellar might have all sorts of forgotten information that could prove useful adventure hooks (semi-accurate maps of the past, a journal detailing how the local lord's family came to power, a map of the inner city - including forgotten structures now buried, and so forth). It might also have collapsed into a forgotten section of the sewer system, which if large enough could allow access to forgotten rooms and secret passages into structures inside the city.
All sorts of interesting things might be found.
Consider also this link for some ideas as to possible city maps. The maps are (very) old fashioned and of cities from ~1200 to ~1800, but they give a nice overview of the major roadways and structures, at least, and thus provide a possible template for your city design.
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/search_a_z.html
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/
Last edited:
Nyeshet
First Post
Some other links that could aid you ...
Population Center Demographics Calculator (will even add in D&D races and classes)
http://www.lucidphoenix.com/dnd/demo/business0.asp
Kingdom Population Calculator (as above, but determines for an entire kingdom)
http://www.lucidphoenix.com/dnd/demo/kingdom.asp
Medieval Kingdom Generator (allows more variation and additional jobs/variables)
http://qzil.com/kingdom/
all three of which are based upon:
Medieval Demographics Made Easy (based upon 1292 Paris tax info)
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
The last link does not have a generator (that I can tell, although I seem to recall one on the site; perhaps it was taken down?), but it does have several pages worth of explanations as to the hows and whys for making a realistic and workable medieval city population - including the land area needed to maintain such a population.
Personally, I prefer the third link, as I can copy and paste in the list of jobs and the ratio to go with said jobs. So if I want clerics to be less numerous, then I simply erase the '40' next to them and place another number. Perhaps they are only one to seventy, so I write '70' next to clerics. If I want to add in another job - perhaps 'bardic instructor' - then I just write in that job and put the number next to it. I'll presume there is one per 1000 persons in a typical city (note that bookbinders in Paris during the 1290s was closer to a ratio of 1 to 6300, so 1 to 1000 is not quite as rare as you might at first think). When the calculations are made, for approximately every 1000 in the population, one will be a bardic instructor.
It makes for a more alterable and enjoyable generator, in my opinion.
Population Center Demographics Calculator (will even add in D&D races and classes)
http://www.lucidphoenix.com/dnd/demo/business0.asp
Kingdom Population Calculator (as above, but determines for an entire kingdom)
http://www.lucidphoenix.com/dnd/demo/kingdom.asp
Medieval Kingdom Generator (allows more variation and additional jobs/variables)
http://qzil.com/kingdom/
all three of which are based upon:
Medieval Demographics Made Easy (based upon 1292 Paris tax info)
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
The last link does not have a generator (that I can tell, although I seem to recall one on the site; perhaps it was taken down?), but it does have several pages worth of explanations as to the hows and whys for making a realistic and workable medieval city population - including the land area needed to maintain such a population.
Personally, I prefer the third link, as I can copy and paste in the list of jobs and the ratio to go with said jobs. So if I want clerics to be less numerous, then I simply erase the '40' next to them and place another number. Perhaps they are only one to seventy, so I write '70' next to clerics. If I want to add in another job - perhaps 'bardic instructor' - then I just write in that job and put the number next to it. I'll presume there is one per 1000 persons in a typical city (note that bookbinders in Paris during the 1290s was closer to a ratio of 1 to 6300, so 1 to 1000 is not quite as rare as you might at first think). When the calculations are made, for approximately every 1000 in the population, one will be a bardic instructor.
It makes for a more alterable and enjoyable generator, in my opinion.
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There are a bunch of ideas in the material for the two main cities of the Enclave setting:
Port
Three Stones
At the 20,000' level, Port is a city of thieves, players, and seafolk, while Three Stones is a city of priests, nobles, and seers. Port is chaotic, Three Stones is lawful. Beneath that, the cliches hopefully become a little more subverted.
Reason
Principia Infecta
Port
Three Stones
At the 20,000' level, Port is a city of thieves, players, and seafolk, while Three Stones is a city of priests, nobles, and seers. Port is chaotic, Three Stones is lawful. Beneath that, the cliches hopefully become a little more subverted.
Reason
Principia Infecta
RichGreen
Adventurer
Nyeshet
First Post
Thanks! Perhaps due to being a history major, I tend to read up on things like this. Also, I tend to believe that it is the little details that help make a setting truly enjoyable to the players.
Phlebas
First Post
I do like the idea of ruins within the city. Both for that faded glory feel and also to give some hack'n'slash opportunities if the rest of the time the adventure will involve a lot of plot and subtleties
you could go for the outer regions being in decline (when the turks rode into Byzantium there were wolves living in the ruins of the outskirts, the population had shrunk so much). This also allows more substantial public amenities (eg massive sewers, great temples) than the size of the city would normally allow
IMC i had an entire section of the city laid waste by an attempted invasion a century before. due to the amount of magical traps and monsters involved in the battle they just fortified the internal defences at the time, and its only now that the city authorities are expanding back by licencing adventures to go looting in the ruins (and killing off the remaining monsters / setting off the magical traps). This hook also gave you a battlefield on one side of the city, plus the burial grounds and a mysterious dissapearance of the dark mage behind it all.....
you could go for the outer regions being in decline (when the turks rode into Byzantium there were wolves living in the ruins of the outskirts, the population had shrunk so much). This also allows more substantial public amenities (eg massive sewers, great temples) than the size of the city would normally allow
IMC i had an entire section of the city laid waste by an attempted invasion a century before. due to the amount of magical traps and monsters involved in the battle they just fortified the internal defences at the time, and its only now that the city authorities are expanding back by licencing adventures to go looting in the ruins (and killing off the remaining monsters / setting off the magical traps). This hook also gave you a battlefield on one side of the city, plus the burial grounds and a mysterious dissapearance of the dark mage behind it all.....
GrumpyOldMan
First Post
The original Cities of Hârn map?
There is a new map with the expanded version of Golotha available from CGI.
The expanded city includes all of the stuff from cities and son of cities, plus lots of new stuff. If you don’t have son of cities then you’ll not know about the violent and dangerous floating city consistoing of the dozens of boats moored underneath Northhaven Wharf. If I was only going to use one part of Golotha as published, that would be it.
Nyeshet
First Post
One quick question ...
(Okay, I admit it has grown into quite a bit more than just one question ....)
Have you chosen a city map already and need help adding details to it (perhaps having stripped it of its prior details - or making alterations to it assuming hundreds of years have past since those details were relevant)?
Or do you intend to draw a map from scratch - or have already done so - and wish to add details and such to make it more realistic?
Lastly, if you do not yet have a map drawn, could you tell us a little about what you intend for this town or city?
How long has it been since the first buildings were raised (ie: since it was founded, likely as a village)? What climate is it in - wetland, rain forest, forest, light woodland, plains, desert, etc? What is the terrain like - mountainous, hilly, a bit rough, utterly flat - and is it at the top, on the side, or in the valley of said mountains or hills, if such is the terrain? Is it near a sea, a lake (vast or small), a river, or even a stream - or does it rely on a well for its water supply?
In the past (prior to the PoL setting) was it along a major trade route? Or was it perhaps even a hub of trade - and/or a center well known for a particular product? (In the bronze age most lapis lazuli came from a single region, for example, and while copper was somewhat common, tin was quite uncommon - only a few regions had tin mines.)
Was it the former head city of a major religion, the capital of an empire or kingdom, or just one of many cities that happened to exist under the rule of some other city? Or was it merely a village - only recently grown to large size?
As this is a fantasy world - what other races live nearby? Is the city cosmopolitan - having several races with no one race being predominant, or is it more insular - primarily of one race, although members of other races have small areas of their own (equivalent of china-town, perhaps) within the city? Or is the city of only one race - with any other races present being visiting dignitaries, merchants from afar, and so forth. Maybe the town is mostly or all of one race - but other races are not too far off. The hills nearby hide a dwarven hall or an underhill elven realm. The forest might have an elven band or two wandering or settled within it. Halflings or gnomes might have small villages somewhere nearby - although no one is quite certain as to which direction or how far off they are.
What about the power factions in the city? How many religions are present, and do they get along, or do they fight amongst each other (usually politically, sometimes violently) for influence? Or is one a state religion, with several others allowed only second hand status - the worshipers of such perhaps levied an extra tax?
What about magic? Is this a high magic world or a low magic world? This can have a massive impact on your city - its character, its history, and its resources.
If you can answer just a few of these questions, I feel we can help you far more with your city. Even if you have already decided on a layout and many of the details, we might be able to help you flesh it out more. And if you are mostly uncertain as to the details, if you give us the few details you have decided upon we may be able to help you build the rest of the skeleton of the city and even help flesh it out a bit.
(Okay, I admit it has grown into quite a bit more than just one question ....)
Have you chosen a city map already and need help adding details to it (perhaps having stripped it of its prior details - or making alterations to it assuming hundreds of years have past since those details were relevant)?
Or do you intend to draw a map from scratch - or have already done so - and wish to add details and such to make it more realistic?
Lastly, if you do not yet have a map drawn, could you tell us a little about what you intend for this town or city?
How long has it been since the first buildings were raised (ie: since it was founded, likely as a village)? What climate is it in - wetland, rain forest, forest, light woodland, plains, desert, etc? What is the terrain like - mountainous, hilly, a bit rough, utterly flat - and is it at the top, on the side, or in the valley of said mountains or hills, if such is the terrain? Is it near a sea, a lake (vast or small), a river, or even a stream - or does it rely on a well for its water supply?
In the past (prior to the PoL setting) was it along a major trade route? Or was it perhaps even a hub of trade - and/or a center well known for a particular product? (In the bronze age most lapis lazuli came from a single region, for example, and while copper was somewhat common, tin was quite uncommon - only a few regions had tin mines.)
Was it the former head city of a major religion, the capital of an empire or kingdom, or just one of many cities that happened to exist under the rule of some other city? Or was it merely a village - only recently grown to large size?
As this is a fantasy world - what other races live nearby? Is the city cosmopolitan - having several races with no one race being predominant, or is it more insular - primarily of one race, although members of other races have small areas of their own (equivalent of china-town, perhaps) within the city? Or is the city of only one race - with any other races present being visiting dignitaries, merchants from afar, and so forth. Maybe the town is mostly or all of one race - but other races are not too far off. The hills nearby hide a dwarven hall or an underhill elven realm. The forest might have an elven band or two wandering or settled within it. Halflings or gnomes might have small villages somewhere nearby - although no one is quite certain as to which direction or how far off they are.
What about the power factions in the city? How many religions are present, and do they get along, or do they fight amongst each other (usually politically, sometimes violently) for influence? Or is one a state religion, with several others allowed only second hand status - the worshipers of such perhaps levied an extra tax?
What about magic? Is this a high magic world or a low magic world? This can have a massive impact on your city - its character, its history, and its resources.
If you can answer just a few of these questions, I feel we can help you far more with your city. Even if you have already decided on a layout and many of the details, we might be able to help you flesh it out more. And if you are mostly uncertain as to the details, if you give us the few details you have decided upon we may be able to help you build the rest of the skeleton of the city and even help flesh it out a bit.
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