D&D 3E/3.5 Worst 3.5 rule from core books?

[StreamOfTheSky]

The sneak attacker still has to make the d% roll to hit with Blur, so you could just abstract it and say that if he got past the Blur effect, he landed on target and can sneak attack as normal, right?

 

[thompsja]

Epic Spellcasting

I count Epic Spellcasting as core, since it is part of the D20 SRD. As a power gamer I love it - you can do an awful lot with it, and really buff up your character.

I've posted this on other boards, so bear with me.

Assume you've got a 22nd level wizard with a +45 Spell craft. He happens to have a thriving school of magic, and so has thirty spellcasters who can help him in rituals. They provide a 3rd level spell every day for him to cast.

The big offender is the fortify seed. With a little time, every Epic spellcaster will have a +5 Inherent bonus to every stat that they want, plus their saves.

Then, they cast these:

I am SO smart
Spellcraft DC: 5
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Components: V,S
Range: Touch
Target: One Creature
Duration: 420 hours (17.5 days)
Saving Throw: Will negates (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 45,000 gp, 1 day, 1800XP. Seed Fortify(DC 17). Factors: +59 additional bonus, 21x duration Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), 30 additional casters each contributing a 3rd level spell slot (-150 DC).
This spell increases the target’s Intelligence by 60 points, providing greatly enhanced skills, and vastly increasing a wizard’s spell slots and save DC’s.

Your weapons mean nothing to me
Spellcraft DC: 6
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Components: V,S
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 720 hours (30 days)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 54,000 gp, 2100XP, 2 days. Seed: Ward (DC 14) . Factors: Protected against all three sources (+4 DC) +50 additional damage resisted (+100 DC). Increase duration to 30x (+58),. Mitigating Factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), 30 additional casters each contributing a 3rd level spell slot (-150 DC).
This spell wards the target from the first 55 points of damage each melee round.

I laugh at your magic.
Spellcraft DC: 3
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Components: V,S
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 600 hours (25 days)
Saving Throw: Yes (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 27,000 gp, 1080XP., 1 day. Seed: Fortify(Spell Resistance) (DC 27) . Factors: Increase Spell resistance by 22 (+88 DC) 47, Increase duration to 30x (+58),. Mitigating Factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), 30 additional casters each contributing a 3rd level spell slot (-150 DC).
This spell provides the target with Spell resistance 47, lasting 25 days.

You'll note that each spell has been extended to many days. The caster can cast one of these babies each day, and still have many others to do.

Yes, he needs a few more of these to be totally resistant to energy attacks. But now every spell this guy throws is going to have a DC near 50. With the obscenely high INT, he picks up tremendous numbers of bonus spells. Even if he is short ritualists, he can use his own talent to make up (some of) the difference. The ritualists bring down the costs to rather small outlays at the epic level.

This is the most abusable system I'm aware of. Lots and lots of DM guidance is needed to make sure that the game isn't unplayable due to massive imbalances in power level.

John

 

[frankthedm]

Wow, I just tried to make a house rule for this, but it got complicated fast. My ruling was going to be that partial concealment didn't negate, only full concealment did. But then I start reading up on spells like Blur, which would seem to be exactly the kind of thing that should confuse a sneak attack. The problem? It provides partial cover. So a blanket rule that partial cover isn't enough to negate a sneak attack makes no sense. I immediately wanted to make 20 exceptions to my house rule. Ridiculous.

So now I'm thinking that maybe just "shadowy illumination" is the exception.

Or, I was also thinking that the sneak attack damage could require a confirmation roll in cases of partial concealment, sorta like critical hits. Ugh. This gets difficult.

Here's one:

3.0: Each 10% of concealment miss chance reduces sneak attack damage by one die. If you have Blind Fight, lose one less die of sneak attack. Total concealment still negates sneak attack.

3.5: Concealment [20% miss chance ] reduces sneak attack dice by two. If you have Blind Fight, lose one less die of sneak attack. Total concealment still negates sneak attack.

 

[green slime]

Ok. If I hand over the weapon I made to you, created with all my special forging techniques and my own metal alloy blend, that's some premium technology right there. What if you use that piece to make copies of my work and put me out of business? I should probably charge a fee on top of the item expense and put in a "class action lawsuit" rainy day fund, just in case.

This is silly. The sword doesn't reveal your secret forging techniques.

It's silly that there's a fee to share spell knowledge. Obviously it shouldn't be "free," but this seems more of an RP thing to me. Someone wants to learn fireball? Big deal, not like me saying no will prevent him from learning it. He wants to learn a spell I researched myself? Umm...not so sure, there. And if the wizard is someone I know and trust, why do I need to charge him? What if we trade a few spells known each? A hard fee should be the last resort if nothing else makes sense. Not the standard.

No, the standard describes the price at which most spellcasters will share their hard-fought for knowledge to relative strangers. I can't believe that you are taking this so literally that you apply it to all situations. Nothing forces your character to charge this price. You can charge your own, completely arbitrary price. The standard is there as a guideline, and, as such, should be willingly modified by the DM in play, adjusted according to what seems reasonable at the time, for the campaign in question.

Actually, your comparison is irrelevant. The wizard could buy some scrolls and add them in over time, sure. But if the Fighter wants to get a shield, sword, AND hemp rope all in one day (the nerve! /sarcasm), does he have to wait for three days to pass before he can use them all? Seems kind of dumb to me. And for the last time, WIZARD IS OVERPOWERED. I don't argue that. I'm not saying they need a helping hand. The system for adding spells that is in place now, in terms of limiting power, is just a minor inconvenience in any campaign, unless you're playing in a game where every second counts, action is nonstop, and you're lucky to have time to sleep let alone get "down time." I suppose then the rules for adding spells would actually limit power, but in a game like that most people would avoid playing a wizard anyway.

??? Does the fighter in your campaign really walk into a armoury and equip himself with adamantine full plate on demand?? Does the heraldric device magically appear on his shield? Of course the weapon salesman has multiple items of every conceivable variety readily available at the drop of hat, including a multitude of various metallic flavours (Cold Iron, Darksteel, mithral, adamantine, Steel, wooden, rubine, abyssal, mistle toe, whatever)

THAT seems kind of dumb to me.

I'm NOT arguing about the POWER of the WIZARD.

The idea is, that it is supposed to be, only a minor inconvenience in most campaigns.

And the wizard has to pay for every spell he adds. But that's not enough. He needs "special" ink to actually add it to his book. Does the Fighter need to buy something in order to equip the gear he just bought? That was the comparison I was making.

I think your messing flavour text and rules text. What does the SRD actually say about "special" ink?

Materials and Costs

Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.

Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

And that is it. So much for special ink. This cost is also abolished by Boccob's blessed book. So it really isn't a factor at all.

And the wizard needs to learn extra spells beyond the 2/level he gets for free to cover all the utility stuff the party expects out of him. In this case, the Fighter just buys different weapons for different DR, back up equipment, etc... and that's the end. The wizard not just buys the spells, but has a premium amount of spell book space to store it till he pays for a blessed book. So, to compare body slots and extra stuff to prepared spells and extra ones not in use, the Fighter's only really limited to how many rings, amulets, bracers, etc... he wants to carry by weight. The wizard has to fit all his extra stuff in his book(s). And there is no ability I've seen short of Mordenkainen's Disjunction (aka, "the nuclear option") that destroys or takes away as many pieces of gear from the fighter as can be done to the wizard's available spells just by burning or stealing a single book in one single action.

So? All things in life are not equal. At the level where we are discussing, it is rather trivial to prepare a 2nd blessed book...

An unlucky encounter with two or three rust monsters can render a fighter completely without options for the remainder of the session.

I've never been in a game where the wizard's spellbook was permanently ruined. A couple of times they were deprived of it for a period during incarceration, but that is about it. YMMV. Obviously, it is a very big issue for you. I suggest, therefore, playing a spontaneous spellcaster of some kind.

And you can do this without all that stupidity with any prepared caster other than wizard/wu jen/anything else I'm forgetting with a spellbook. Except for the balancing time between making items and learning part, although if you enjoy researching new spells you can even get that experience with other classes. I don't mind balancing resources and time. I do mind the unfathomable circus you go through as part of that, though.

Researching new spells and learning old ones are flavourfully different, and governed by different rules. Researching new spells is, to a far greater degree, subject to DM whim. Learning fireball is pretty much staple and unlikely to be vetoed.

Why is it unfathomable? You want something; it has a price. Where is the circus involved? That is the way of the world.

You want information? You have a few choices:
to pay someone (bribe, lender's fee,
fool someone (beg, borrow, or steal)
get it yourself.

You want a new spell? You ensure that you have access to that spell from a scroll or other spellbook, then scribe the spell into your spellbook. Seems perfectly logical to me.

I don't want wizards that function as clerics. I like the difference in flavour, between clerics and wizards. Flavour makes a huge difference. For me, at least.

There are. But you shouldn't need to play a spontaneous arcanist to avoid the headaches you never deal with when playing a divine prepared caster. Like I argued by taking the theory to its logical extreme: making a class just plain annoying to play as is NOT a good way to balance its powers.

And therein lies our difference: I don't find it annoying in the least. I don't see it as "necessary" for balancing its powers. I see it as an interesting case of asset management. In order to get something (access to more spells), I have to do something with a limited resource (spend money).

How do you think it should work?

 

[Runestar]

Well, it is no small secret that epic spellcasting is extremely biased towards long duration buffs (since you can easily extend the casting time to lower its dc, and extending its duration is dirt cheap). My lv21 wizard was easily getting +16 enhancement bonus to int at spellcraft dc0...

Conversely, damage spells are screwed over, since the seeds typically start off with a casting time of 1 minute (meaning you need to increase the DC by 18 just to be able to cast it in combat), and the damage boosts are way overcosted.

 

[washout]

Yes, he needs a few more of these to be totally resistant to energy attacks. But now every spell this guy throws is going to have a DC near 50. With the obscenely high INT, he picks up tremendous numbers of bonus spells. Even if he is short ritualists, he can use his own talent to make up (some of) the difference. The ritualists bring down the costs to rather small outlays at the epic level.

This is the most abusable system I'm aware of. Lots and lots of DM guidance is needed to make sure that the game isn't unplayable due to massive imbalances in power level.

John

I think you could contribute almost the entire bank of 3rd levels spells required for casting. If you can substitute 4th and 5th level spells as well then if you had rings of wizardry for 3rd 4th and 5th you could just cast it alone. Especially once you had cast it a single time, subsiquient times you would have so many bonus spells it would be cake to upkeep.

edit: This does not work at all actually, each added spell slot has to come from one of your alcolites. With such a short casting time if you had a bunch of dudes with 3 or so 3rd level slots available you could case it on 2 or 3 people per day and power up all of your deciples as well.

 

[thompsja]

With such a short casting time if you had a bunch of dudes with 3 or so 3rd level slots available you could case it on 2 or 3 people per day and power up all of your deciples as well.

Actually, it is even worse than that. Here's one our wizard uses on his guards:

Pact of the Indomintable Warrior
Spellcraft DC: 10
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Components: V,S
Range: 300'
Target: 20' radius
Duration: 600 hours (25 days)
Saving Throw: Will negates (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 90,000 gp, 3600XP. Seeds: Fortify (DC 17) and Fortify (DC 17). Factors: +19 additional bonus to STR (+38 DC), +19 additional Bonus to CON (+38), Increase duration to 30x (+58), Change target to Area (+10), Change area to 20' radius(+2). Mitigating Factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), 30 additional casters each contributing a 3rd level spell slot (-150 DC).
This spell increases the STR and CON of everyone inside a target circle by +20.


We could easily change this to just be INT, and then all of his casters stand in the circle. Bingo, everyone has 55+ INT.

With the power of Epic spells, particularly permanent effects, I started working on a prestige class for casters. You'd submit to a Compel spell at first level, give up a 3rd level slot every day. As you progressed in the class, you'd get inherent stat raises for your character. You'd submit so that the Epic Wizard could see through your eyes. He could grant you a favor, such as casting a Maximized Disintegrate on your target. In addition, wizards would get another spell per level, but pay 10% of their gained wealth, and have privileges to use the library. I never got finished with it, but the class is based around being a living spell battery, and the Epic Wizard helping to protect you - because he needs your spell slots.

Epic Wizards will always build a Fortify Con effect, which will give them many more hit points. All of their attack spells will have take damage to the maximal extent possible. Until characters reach 27th level, they can't cast more than two epic spells per day. A 25th level character could create a spell that does 50d6 damage. This character would have 25 * (2.5) base dice, plus 25 * 30 (for using a +60 CON spell like the +60 INT spell above) This works out to over 800 hit points. Even maxing out damage on both epic spells, he will only take 600 damage (an extremely unlikely event).

Epic spells are like nuclear weapons. Those that have them are simply on a different power level than people who don't. With ritualists, the ability to create very powerful effects becomes absurdly easy. I've got in mind a lich who has killed several spell casters, and kept them around as ghosts. He's got them bound by compel to give him a spell slot whenever he wants it, so his quickened attack spells can become rituals... the mind boggles at what is possible.

 

[Jack Simth]

This is the most abusable system I'm aware of. Lots and lots of DM guidance is needed to make sure that the game isn't unplayable due to massive imbalances in power level.

John

That isn't nearly as bad as it gets.

A single Wizard-21 (generalist), working alone, uninterrupted....

1) Get your first set of ritualists.
Every day for 20 days...
a) Prepare four copies each of: Magic Circle Against Law (3rd), Dimensional Anchor (4th), Dismissal (5th), Planar Binding (6th), Quickened Dispel Magic (7th), Moment of Prescience (8th); this leaves you with your 1st, 2nd, 9th, and bonus spell slots for personal defence.
b) Planar Bind 4 Couatls (with their saves, you've got a 95% chance of Calling and trapping them; applying Moment of Prescience to the opposed charisma check to negotiate, and you've got a 95% of binding them to your service) to aid you in all the spells you cast over the next 20 days. You get approximately 90% success rate on these Callings.
c) Rest up to recover spells
Now, statistically, at the 20-day mark, you'll have 20*4*0.90=72 Couatls in your service. If we want a margin of safety, we say 80% of them stick around, for 64 Couatls.
We maintain this for a while, to keep the supply of Couatls up. After all, each one casts as a Sorcerer-9 (4th level spell slots, for -7 to a Spellcraft DC for an Epic spell; we have a -448 spellcraft modifier this way).
2) Get your permanent set of ritualists
a) Craft a DC 0 Epic spell (no gp, xp, or time cost to research) to Permanently (*5) Summon (base DC 14 for CR 2 Outsider) Planetars (CR 16, so +14 CR over 2, so +28 DC); one Planetar, Permanently Summoned, is thus a base Spellcraft DC of 5*(14+28)=210 - we can be Summoning Two of them initially (or can start summoning them after a ten-day warmup). If you max out Spellcraft and Kn(Arcana), You have two Epic spell slots at this level - and Couatl's have more than two 4th level spell slots each day, so this is fine. You are now picking up four Planetars each day - and each Planetar casts as a Cleric-17 - which means two 9th level spell slots (-17 mitigation per Planetar, twice per day). After three days of this (day 23), you now have 12 Planetars (9th level spells) and 64 Couatls (4th level spells) for -652 mitigation... Permanently Summoning three Planetars at a time is DC 630. We now research another DC 0 Epic spell to do so (requiring 12 9th level spell slots, and 64 4th level spell slots). This takes no time, no xp, and no gp. So on day 24, you're Permanently Summoning 3 Planetars at a time, twice per day, for six planetars per day. At the end of day 25, you now have 24 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for 856 in mitigation... which is good for four Planetars per casting, so research another spell, and get 8 Planetars a day. At the end of day 27, you now have 40 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,128 in mitigation - enough for five planetars a casting, for 10 a day. At the end of day 28, you have 50 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,298 in mitigation - enough for 6 Planetars/casting, and 12/day. At the end of day 29, you have 62 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,502 in mitigation - enough for 7 Planetars per casting, and 14 per day. At the end of day 30, you have 76 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for 1,740 in mitigation - enough for 8 Planetars per casting and thus 16 per day.

This is exponential growth. Every 12 (and 1/3rd, roughly) Planetars gives you space for another planetar per casting, for two more planetars per day. You can use this method to get arbitrarily high DC's in surprisingly short timeframes. A little fun with spreadsheets, and at day 60, you've got 8668 Permanently Summoned Planetars (and 64 Called Couatls, but that's change at this point - still, my calculations include them) for more than 147,804
in mitigation by spell slots. At day 90, that's 783,338 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 13,317,194 in Mitigation. At day 120, that's 70,644,176 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 1,200,951,440 in Mitigation. At day 365, you're looking at approximately 6.54*10^23 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and approximately 1.11*10^25 in mitigation.

And that's just a generalist wizard-20, with Quicken Spell and Epic Spellcasting.

Yeah, it needs a lot of DM oversight.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I would say that it matches the crunch just fine. We don't know the fine points of how magic works in the D&D game, and it could be that for some reason a caster can't "tie off" a particular spell at the most convenient point. For instance, maybe with Identify (1 hour casting time) you can only cast say... ten minutes' worth of the spell, and, if you try to save the rest of the casting for later, the spell just unravels.

Bob the Destroyer

Makes sense. Nice way to think of it.

 

[thompsja]

That isn't nearly as bad as it gets.

A single Wizard-21 (generalist), working alone, uninterrupted....

snip startup, with very straightforward method of binding couatls, bringing in controlled outsiders to provide spell casters.

This is exponential growth. Every 12 (and 1/3rd, roughly) Planetars gives you space for another planetar per casting, for two more planetars per day. You can use this method to get arbitrarily high DC's in surprisingly short timeframes. A little fun with spreadsheets, and at day 60, you've got 8668 Permanently Summoned Planetars (and 64 Called Couatls, but that's change at this point - still, my calculations include them) for more than 147,804
in mitigation by spell slots. At day 90, that's 783,338 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 13,317,194 in Mitigation. At day 120, that's 70,644,176 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 1,200,951,440 in Mitigation. At day 365, you're looking at approximately 6.54*10^23 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and approximately 1.11*10^25 in mitigation.

And that's just a generalist wizard-20, with Quicken Spell and Epic Spellcasting.

Yeah, it needs a lot of DM oversight.

Wow, brings me back to my combinatorics class. This is really impressive, getting modifications to spell casting rolls that require scientific notation.

This is bad, even without using them as spell batteries. With a number of couatls, you can lead a fairly powerful army. And along with that, is the whole idea of getting free wishes by using planar binding on outsiders that can grant wishes.

But with this approach, you could depopulate Heaven. I salute you, sir, for showing this lowly one true rules manipulation.