WotC is going ebook at DrivethruRPG...

[Cergorach]

Weh ok, perhaps I am not too much a "modern" DM

Just curious... are you a player or a DM? Because when I am the DM, we're always playing at my home, where all my books are. I have used a laptop with Sovelior's SRD and it was very useful for checking rules. I think 99% of the times (IMXP) the game takes place at the DM's.
If you are a player instead, well I simply think you should be disallowed to check books during the game

I'm both, until a year and a half or so ago i was the DM, but due to starting a new campaign and an unexpected influx of work i had to step down as DM, and be a player again (was lots of fun). Next session i'm DM again and will be for atleast the comming year. As for playing at my home, most often we don't, as i have to share the place with three other people and space is limited. The other folks either had room or didn't have anyone else to share the space with...

When i played a Wizard/Rogue a couple of years ago i made a spellbook of all the spells i had, very usefull if you have complex spells. A sheet of feats would also have been usefull. Typing over spells isn't my favorite occupation...

As we only play around once a month we tend to have huge discussions on a website we run, sometimes those are rules related and it's handy to have access to my gaming library at work ;-) It's also usefull for when i'm preparing a session at work, or at the summer 'home' of my parents (it's more like a caravan then a home)...

 

[Castellan]

The problems you describe have nothing in particular to do with DRM, but instead of bad software. If you had an HTML file with links to images on your hard drive that pointed to an absolute location, you'd suffer problems with transfering to a new computer as well and would have to jump through some hoops to get it working properly again.

Very true. Poor implementation is an excellent reason why DRM is such a bad idea. Unless you've got a company that can really do it right (Apple's iTunes is the only one that I've seen do it well) it's a pointless excercise in customer punishment. So, although you're using this point to defend DRM, I think you're misguided. Until a given development company can effectively implement DRM, it shouldn't be used.

Most of the annoyances people have on here with DRM have nothing to do with DRM but with Adobe not being able to write good software. As DRM matures, these problems will go away, especially once DRM starts being supported at the processor, and later the BIOS, level. Once at this point, any computer will be able to identify you as the user. So any files you use, no matter what computer you are at, will work, DRM or no.

I shudder at the thought of my computer (or any computer, for that matter) supporting this at the processor/BIOS/ROM level.

It's also unsettling to know that if I buy a PDF, burn it to CD, take it to my local library and pop it in the drive, I may not be able to read it.

DRM is poorly understood by just about every single individual I have ever heard talk negatively about it. The only real argument against DRM is singularly ideological in nature. When properly implemented, it will represent no annoyances to the user, no limitations beyond that already imposed by the law, and a host of benefits that user-level software just haven't had the opportunity to support yet.

On the contrary, I think that taking an apologist's standpoint suggests a poor understanding of the current technology. It's a mistake to support your argument with statements like, "When properly implemented..." Except in a few cases, DRM is not properly implemented.

It's also important to note that ideological arguments are as valid as technical. An important arguments is: why should I be restricted in how I can view my digital copy when I have no such restriction for my physical copy? Any answer that defends that disparity strongly suggests an unfair double-standard.

I look forward to a DRM world where I can purchase any media I want and consume it instantaneously. Hell, DRM (properly implemented) has already allowed me to rent movies without ever leaving my computer, and begin watching in 30 seconds. That's a benefit that just isn't available without DRM.

The unfortunate thing is that we already have the ability to purchase media and consume it instantaneously. Consumers do not need DRM to do this. DRM represents no added value. And any DRM scheme that prevents me from using materials I've purchased in the way I want is overly restrictive.

When I purchase a PDF from RPGNow, I can print pages or copy and paste text to my heart's content. But DTRPG has strong restrictions on how much text I can copy or how much printing I can do, and the 10-day restriction is arbitrary and silly.

As an interesting comparison, I downloaded the Traveller T20 Lite rules from QuickLink's web site when I was thinking about running an updated Traveller game. A few weeks ago, DTRPG had those same rules available as a free download -- with DRM attached. Both documents are freely available, yet one has such gross restrictions that it's useless. It would have been better for DTRPG to just link to the non-DRMed copy. I weep for anyone who downloaded that version rather than the non-crippled version.

Please keep in mind that I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you personally. (I'm really not.) I respect your appreciation of DRM, but I think you've jumped the gun and are overly apologetic about a technology whose use is dubious at best.

Perhaps it's just that I'm a US citizen and have grown up with the arrogant idea that I want what I want when I want it. However, in the US, DRM needs to adapt to this consumer-level mind-set. If it doesn't adapt, it will die.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

MacIntosh

I have direct evidence that I can read DRMed books on my MacIntosh. The problem is that you can't run Internet Explorer when trying to download the books or to activate your DRM, you have to use Safari or some other browser.

 

[Henry]

One quick note, for those who never participated in the "FLAME-WARS OF JUNE 2004":

DRM discussion is fine, as long as it directly relates to the thread topic (WotC doing more E-books). NO PERSONAL INSULTS at other posters, nor flames direct at Drive-thru RPG or another DRM using vendor, are allowed. It's fine to say, "I don't like their policies," or "DRM never worked for me when I tried it", etc. But let's not go into the territory of flame-fests and misinformation if we can help it.

Like I said, I've seen good debate in the thread, and no one has stepped over the line, but I want to head off any misunderstandings.

Thanks.

Henry

 

[GlassJaw]

A cursory search on Kazaa led me to two Malhavoc products available for download. It led me to none of the Wizards products currently available from DTRPG

You're just not looking in the right places. Right or wrong, they're out there, trust me. :\

DRM is poorly understood by just about every single individual I have ever heard talk negatively about it.

Exactly. And that's why it will ultimately fail. Customers don't like to feel that their hand is being forced with something they purchase. They want completel ownership. Circuit City experimented with DVD's in the DivX format (not to be comfused with the DIVX codec). Basically, they were DVD's that required a special DVD player. The DVD had a limited number of times you could view it. The player had to be connected to a phone line and it kept track of how many times it was view. It failed miserably. Customers didn't like the fact that they never really "owned" the DVD. Companies have also had difficulty implementing legal online music downloaded with proprietary formats. Again, customers want a format that have have on their computer, put in their mp3 player, or burn on a CD.

The companies created the content. They should have absolute, totalitarian control over how they allow their content to be consumed. It is theirs. They own it. Not you.

For better or worse, this is becoming less and less enforceable in our ever-expanding digital world. The technology will not slow down. It doesn't matter what kind of legal action is taken or copyright protection technology is implemented, some new format or method will pop up circumventing it. Just look at the music industry. The major record labels are in fear because their Britneys and Ashlees are on the verge of becoming dinosaurs. Legal or not, in the end, the customer is always right.

 

[Asmor]

The problems you describe have nothing in particular to do with DRM, but instead of bad software. If you had an HTML file with links to images on your hard drive that pointed to an absolute location, you'd suffer problems with transfering to a new computer as well and would have to jump through some hoops to get it working properly again.

Most of the annoyances people have on here with DRM have nothing to do with DRM but with Adobe not being able to write good software. As DRM matures, these problems will go away, especially once DRM starts being supported at the processor, and later the BIOS, level. Once at this point, any computer will be able to identify you as the user. So any files you use, no matter what computer you are at, will work, DRM or no.

DRM is poorly understood by just about every single individual I have ever heard talk negatively about it. The only real argument against DRM is singularly ideological in nature. When properly implemented, it will represent no annoyances to the user, no limitations beyond that already imposed by the law, and a host of benefits that user-level software just haven't had the opportunity to support yet.

I look forward to a DRM world where I can purchase any media I want and consume it instantaneously. Hell, DRM (properly implemented) has already allowed me to rent movies without ever leaving my computer, and begin watching in 30 seconds. That's a benefit that just isn't available without DRM.

Anything that has to be authenticated with a remote server is inherently secure. MMORPGs are the most difficult games to pirate because every time you play, you need to be connected to a remote server. (Note, however, they are not impossible to pirate... All one needs to do is get a functioning serial code, of course then they still have to pay the monthly fee. And all this flies out the window once 3rd party servers become available).

I fail to see how my problem is a result of poor software deisgn on Adobe's part. It's a result of an inherently flawed system which only punishes legitimate consumers. It is simply not possible, as you predict, for a BIOS or processor to know that I'm me, Jack's Jack and Bob's Bob unless we have all registered somewhere. And I refuse to register. It's an invasion of privacy that I will not tolerate. Imagine if every time you walked into a Barnes & Noble to buy a book, they required you give your full name, address, address of all places you plan to read the book, and they stuck a lock on the cover with GPS so that it would not open unless you were at one of the given places. That is exactly what DRM is (in the sense that downloading a CD is exactly the same as stealing it, at least).

 

[Asmor]

Adobe eBook DRM is just like buying a cd while having a mp3 player, or buying region 1 dvds for your region 2 dvd player. It takes a little bit of research and a little bit of work to make it work, but in the end it does work. Some people even find Activating Adobe DRM to much work, all i have to say to these people, go look at jerry springer because obviously doing something isn't in your vocabulary, a computer isn't meant for your little brain.

Congratulations. You're a pirate. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

That's right. Ignoring the fact that you shouldn't have to do anything to it, it is illegal to disable copyright protection. You are breaking the law.

I used to download things a lot when I was younger. It was wrong. Now that I have more income, I pay for my downloads. I buy them honestly. I will not buy something that would require me to break the law in order to use it the way I want to, the whole point is that I'm trying to "do the right thing."

 

[Asmor]

To my knowledge Microsoft DRM is currently still unbreakable in a general. I don't know about Adobe's. The future implementations of DRM are even unbreakable in theory (in a general implementation sort of way; one can always break it by brute forcing for a single file). There are ways to get around it for a single machine, but the file is not distributable. There are other ways to get lossy copies of audio. There are still other ways to unlock a file temporarily until MS updates the keys. None of these exploits really breaks the DRM. You can always scan a book yourself to distribute the material. That is not what DRM is trying to stop. DRM has immediate and dramatic results on cutting down on piracy.

Anything that can be decoded (as anything must be in order to be viewed) can be pirated. Anything that cannot be decoded is a useless hunk of random, scrambled data.

If, as you say (and I seriously doubt), Microsoft's DRM is unbroken (not unbreakable), it is only because noone's cared enough to bother breaking it yet. It's the same reason there aren't many exploits for Linux, Mac OS or Mozilla. It's not because they're more secure than Windows or Internet Explorer, it's because not enough people use them for anyone to care.

 

[Cergorach]

Congratulations. You're a pirate. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

That's right. Ignoring the fact that you shouldn't have to do anything to it, it is illegal to disable copyright protection. You are breaking the law.

I used to download things a lot when I was younger. It was wrong. Now that I have more income, I pay for my downloads. I buy them honestly. I will not buy something that would require me to break the law in order to use it the way I want to, the whole point is that I'm trying to "do the right thing."

1.) You assume that it's illegal in the netherlands.
2.) You assume that i care.

Circumventing DRM or copyprotection to make a product work on a different media isn't illegal around here, and even if it was... I don't agree with many laws, in most cases it's not worth the trouble to break them, but if i'm not allowed to read, in the comfort of my own, as i please and how i please, then breaking the law is more convenient. Breaking the law has of course consequences... Luckely it's not illegal around to remove the copyprotection or the DRM and doing that doesn't make me a pirate, as i don't redistribute the files without DRM.

I have a decent salary and that allows me to buy the DRMed files (an i've bought for a couple of hundred bucks at DrivethruRPG), the only reason i bought them was because i was confident that i could remove the DRM (eventually), now that i can i am only buying more. If i thought that i couldn't remove/circumvent the DRM, i would never have bought the DRMed pdfs, because they wouldn't be very functional for me. So you could say that the fact that DRM is breakable produced sales at DrivethruRPG ;-)

If there where more publishers like Baen.com and some of the publishers at RPGnow, i would be happier, but that isn't the reality of the situation. I'm not someone that lets others dictate what I can or cannot do, especially not laws that are passed due to pressure from big multinationals that are so corrupt as hell. I do not vote with my money on issues of rights and restrictions, i break them and i take them. I vote with my money on issues of content quality and i vote when elections are up...

Doing "the right thing" is selling everything you have and dedicating the rest of your life to eleviate the suffering of others. But that's a bit too dedicated for most, and too inefficent for my tastes...

ps. Quoting Monopoly opens you up to legal trouble from Hasbro ;-)

 

[kigmatzomat]

Ok, moving the files you downloaded from DrivethruRPG to a new computer is extremely easy, just copy the darned things. Install Acrobat Reader 6 and push Tools => eBook Web Services => Adobe DRM Activator, login and push the register button. That's all that is needed to make it work on Windows XP.

Except that only works a finite number of times. Last month I installed windows 4 times (both motherboard and hard drive were screwed up) and If I'd had DRM'd files and activated them I would have gone through half the product's activation lifespan.

As far as circumventing the DRM goes, it's illegal. Not impossible but illegal. I will make a loud fuss about NOT buying something because it requires me to do something illegal to use in a REASONABLE fashion. The more people who loudly refuse to buy DRMd materials the better since it both educates the masses about the limitations and the publishers about our displeasure.

Silently defeating the DRM does neither of those as silence tacitly indicates approval.