WotC president Greg Leeds and I!!!


First Post
4E PR TO OLDER PLAYERS: I think it was poorly sold to old players. Why? Because when my friends and me saw them immediate reaction, even for most of us that are Wow players, was refusal. Mage changes, cartoonish style, art direction and severe lack of fluff create a big refection. But, after tried, all of them liked to play it, even if we are calling it 4E and not D&D. SOLUTION: try again, maybe with a offshot 1 book setting using a more evocative style and fluff (think Planescape, think FRCS 3E), showing more respect to old editions. Not every 4E player is happy with books looking like recipes.

MINIATURES: most of DDM websites are critisyzing (?) the new cartoonish + all primary color of the minis. Get feedback on this, move in the direction of fanbase, don't try to force us to accept things like Dangerous Delve's War Devil. Check Wow boards and watch kids asking all the time for new graphics. Cartoon is wrong for D&D.

PDF: bring it back. At least for older editions. People who play OD&D won't quit it for playing 4E just because PDFs are rare. They will pirate and move on.

DDI: CB is superb. Compendiun is lovely. Now you should integrate Encounter Builder to Compendium in a way we can export the monsters to a table (4x4) in a file and print it.

DUNGEON BUILDER AND TABLETOP ONLINE: forget about. The graphics are already outdated. Sold the rights or make a partnership with a big company such as Blizzard or Bioware. I would only use it if graphics are at least close to NWN2. With the graphics you showed this game is doomed to fail.

Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad


First Post
Dear Mr Leeds,

  • Since WotC has been involved with selling PDFs of older product since the late 90s and file sharing has been around longer, what market forces prompted this abrupt shift in direction?
  • It has been said that file sharing helps the small or indie companies and hurts the big corporation. I would like to think my hobby is big time and popular, but since I have trouble finding groups, I doubt it. Why does WotC think in the long run PDF piracy will hurt the company?
  • Since file sharing has been active for years, why the adrupt end to pdfs? Why not come up with a better digital solution and then faze out PDFs?
  • how is 4e doing when compared to 3e? How many 4e core phb books have sold compared to how many sold with the same time frame for 3e?


As a lifelong Dungeons and Dragons player, I was dissapointed in the fourth edition of dungeons and dragons because it broke too strongly with the traditions and roots of the game. I also feel that Wizards of the Coast, the market leader in roleplaying games, views roleplaying games as just another product and fails to appreciate the community spirit that is often enjoyed by both designers and players in the hobby. I would like the president of Wizards of the Coast to make an effort to move the role-playing game division of his company away from a market oriented approach and back towards the community approach that was utilized by WotC under the OGL. It is my sincere belief that if he can do this with this one division that the division in question will be more likely to meet the profit goals expected of it.


Here you go:
Ones from one who hasn't touched 4E as of yet and didn't go with Pathfinder either. Who knows if I will do either.

I would like to hear the question answered of how the pulling of PDF's will prevent pirating. It only takes me a few minutes and Google to find the latest and greatest books already pirated.
4E was leaked prior to release.
With the older out of print books on PDF, you still allowed for a revenue stream to come in from customers like myself who never migrated to newer editions. If anything it encouraged some of the 'old guard' 1E/2E crowd to try out some of the newer stuff. Especially when it wasn't overly expensive (same as a physical book).

The court cases are going to turn into WOTC's PR nightmare just like the RIAA had with the music cases. While I do believe they did right in going after the 'distrubitor' vice the downloader.
That leads to the question of WOTC's current Public Image. It has been much maligned since the release of 4E in my opinion. From the forums, to the magazines, to various licences being pulled, to the PDFs, etc. There have been many PR nightmares that have left fans wondering if WOTC is still the company that saved DnD from the dark days of TSR, or if they are turning into their predecessor.
How does WOTC proceed from here? Is it bringing PDF sales in house? Are they going to be tied to DDI?

Honestly if the sales are going in house, please say so. Most will not mind waiting a month for you to set it up. Though really it should have been ready prior to the pulling the plug.

I guess the only big question I could ask is:
How does WOTC plan to bring me back as a returning customer when the last WOTC DnD Book I bought (new) was a 3.5E book?
While I like the things I've heard on DDI, since I'm not running or playing any 4E games can I actually justify paying a 'monthly' subscription for it?
My suggestion on that is a carrot to the 'old dogs' among us, it doesn't require a lot of active support either. Slowly (say one man-day a month) add the old editions to the DDI fold of information. Yes that's a pipe dream, but it shows a way that you can gain revenue from ones such as myself that haven't enriched WOTC's coffers in over a year (with the exception of a box of Miniatures purchased here and there for DnD game use).

Other small ones not as important:
Any plans for one time releases (i.e. one printing) of old edition books/modules?
Any plans for one time releases (unsupported by additional products) of other campaign worlds? (i.e. Dragonlance / Greyhawk / Darksun / Spelljammer)
Any plans to re-license any of those above worlds?

Tell him thanks for his time and to get a new PR person.


First Post
One more thing: please consider doing CB for OD&D, AD&D and 3.5. The people playing these editions won't move to 4E but they can add some cash to Wotc by signing DDI for their editions. Don't release all material at once, update monthly adding more material, so you won't have the trouble of a one time signature.

PS. Bring Modrons back \o/


Registered User
I'll try to focus in on the core of my dissatisfaction with WotC.

I've always put the story first and the rules second. For me the rules have only been a set of guidelines, a loose framework if you will, in which the story can move forward with some consistency. The much stronger framework and one I'm less willing to bend is the story itself.

I've never had a problem in my campaigns dropping a rule-set and moving to a different set of rules. The characters have always been more than just a set of numbers and abilities. I could have done the same with moving from 3.5 to 4e. The friends, enemies, cities, culture, nations, towns, families, etc. of the characters would stay the same even if their abilities were completely re-written. If I could not convert the characters of the past, then a new generation of characters would take over. Heck, On a lark I've had the characters create versions of themselves using HeroQuest.

MHO is that WotC has done just the opposite with their whole approach to marketing 4e. They seem to have a one rule-set mindset which is antithetical to the way I've always approached D&D (or any RPG for that matter). My own guess is that I'm no longer the target demographic for this latest incarnation of D&D from WotC.


Elton Robb

I think they should produce 5e. but only after extensive marketing research on what the D&D player *is*, what they want, their current age, what they want out of 5th edition, and what would help them play D&D both on-line and at the table.

I do believe that marketing 4e as they have didn't garner any of the success they've hoped. I believe they should drop 4e and make Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition with the Dungeons and Dragons audience in mind. This isn't about restoring 3e, its about providing a game for people that play Dungeons and Dragons.

4e in my mind is failing. They jumped the shark by trying to mainstream D&D. D&D isn't a mainstreamable type of game. D&D always appealed to a certain hobbyist, and this type of nerd or geek is the one they should appeal too. The OGL is apart of that marketing, because people who play D&D create for D&D. And we want to share what we've created. ;)

Vyvyan Basterd

I'm stunned! I thought for sure someone was yanking your chain, Brix.

Could you post the note you sent Hasbro so we can see what prompted Mr. Leeds to respond? I think we could all offer more constructive input if we see what caught Hasbro's and Greg Leed's attention enough to wish to speak directly to you and build from there.

Wulf Ratbane

Yeah, I'm sure they're totally unaware of the angry crowd that doesn't like 4e, and talking to one random member of that crowd will somehow convince them of its magnitude and importance.

It'll be a waste of time to open that can of worms and it won't change a single thing. Might as well use the opportunity to make a difference, not waste time beating the same dead horse.

I agree, grousing about 3e/4e is a complete waste of Mr. Leeds' time and of the opportunity given.

WotC could not possibly be more clear than they already have been that they are looking forward with 4e.


First Post
Criticizing 4th Edition in a discussion you've been offered with Leeds is just about the worst idea I can imagine. WotC is not going to move away from 4th Edition, and is not going to provide active support for previous editions. You will be wasting your time - time that could be spent discussing things that may actually prove fruitful.

A good rule of thumb is: only bring up things that WotC could conceivably get behind. Anything else and you're just wasting your breath.

By the way, Brix, you've taken up the mantle of community representative on this particular occasion. There is responsibility that comes with that. If you take the opportunity offered to criticize 4th Edition, you will find many members of the community criticizing you for wasting the chance you were given.
Last edited:

Remove ads


Remove ads

Upcoming Releases