[WOTC] Revised Corebooks for July confirmed with info

[incognito]

My RMM wish list:

1) art for all the monsters
2) a full explanation of natural, ex, spell like, and supernatural abilities
3) better + CR set of conditions for appling templates (a feindish Troll is REALLY nasty)
4) a blurb explaining what mostner summongin, if any, a monster might fall under
5) more animals, vermin, and other 'common' creatures
6) there is no 6)

 

[Negative Zero]

Neg Zero: Read Thalmin's post, and reference what others have said in dozens of posts over the past three years about their 1st edition books. ...

while i did read most of the other posts in this thread, (i kinda just skimmed pages 3 and 4 ) i didn't need them to tell me that pretty much across the board, things made 20 years ago were a lot stronger and more durable than things made 5 years ago. it applies to just about every manufactured product.

so if you treat anything that you buy now to buy today like you've treated things manufactured 20 years ago, then you have no one to blame but yourself. blaming the manufacturer is akin to the woman suing McDonald's for selling fattening food. disregarding common knowledge is your own fault.

besides, if you treat something badly, it will break. griping that something else survived the same kind of abuse, won't change the fact that it broke through your misuse and abuse. while i have no factual data to back this up, i'm sure that for every claim of a 1E PHB surviving 20 years of abuse, there are a dozen people who destroyed theirs with less effort.

~NegZ

<EDIT>
edited for spelling and clarity

 

[Forrester]

How much do you want to bet

that the new books are as full of typos and other mistakes as the old ones?

For instance, yesterday, I learned that Web fills up a 10' cube per caster level. Says so right there in the short spell descript listings. *sigh*

If they actually hired editors this time . . . they'd be worth the price for that alone. I remain skeptical.

As far as added content -- I'm hoping they explain why Bracers of Armor are armor, but they aren't armor, if you're a monk.

 

[Felon]

Re: How much do you want to bet

If they actually hired editors this time . . . they'd be worth the price for that alone.

They have editors. Some are very well-paid.

They just don't do squat.

 

[ZansForCans]

Re: revisions to be posted in the SRD

Well, apparently Bill Slavicsek and Ed Stark have confirmed that Wizards intends to publish the revised materials to the SRD the day the new books are released.

...

Does that change any opinions out there? Is posting the changes to the SRD right away a fair compromise?

This is good news, of course. I personally have no beef with them wanting to do revised editions. As mentioned several times in this thread, the size of the errata and FAQ certainly warrant some major print changes. Perhaps this is why the SRD has never been updated for that material.

But still, the SRD hasn't even been fully officially released yet (I'm happy to see that spells & items were released recently). And frankly, RTF is a ridiculously poor distribution format for it, especially as the sole format for an open product. (Yes, I know RTF can be read by things other than MS products, but there are always 'issues'. And yes, I know they are planning an ASCII version, but where is it? What's wrong with PDF like most of their other on-line content???)

Anyway, that all being said, the truth of the matter is that I bought the WoTC product, not the SRD. So did all the folks in my gaming group. If I want to run a game with the rPHB what do I tell my players? Suck it up? Do I pass around my rPHB to each player for a week? Or is it left to me to type up all the differences that might matter to my future campaigns?

Really, what I'd like to see is the option to snag a PDF from their site. Who cares if it's unwieldy? I (and my players) get to see the changes and it might even provide more incentive for us to make a purchase. In the meantime, we'd get to play with the updated rules that might be used in products coming out starting next summer. I wouldn't expect to be handed all the new 'value-added' material like new PrC, monsters, etc. Rather, an accurate list of the differences in the core elements (rules, classses, spells, etc.) would be all I would expect. Isn't that the least they can do for all of us that have provided "reliable and valuable input" (oh, and those reliable and valuable $$$ too ).

Maybe I'm wrong, but just publishing a revised SRD isn't going to be as accurate or as convienent as true core book update flyers would be. And the lack of this sort of question in the FAQ on the revised versions just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I hope it's just because they haven't decided...

That's my 2cp...

 

[simon_mas]

harsh and bitter. and long. very long.

I agree with ZansForCans and with those that they have said that the printing new book is not what makes unhappy so many people.

the books are unbalanced? well, it's not really their fault, since anybody can make a mistake.
where are the errata? do i have to dig some hundred pages of SRD in order to spot those changes? if the system is flawed and they know what's wrong, can't they just post an errata NOW? or state exactly which areas will be updated?

there are two things that really drives me crazy.

1) they exploited their fans. some of the threads in the wotc boards really had some points. that conjurer guy has made clear to anybody that the system they used for pricing the magical items is broken. and that's just an example. there are dozens of new rangers, monks, haste spells, and so on.
one week ago, these people were just whiners. officially, the system was perfect. if you didn't like a part of it, it's your business.
now, all of the sudden, the system is broken. not completely to justify a 4th edition, mind you. just enough to reprint books incorporating those changes, and some more (which remains unknown to this date), probably those very house rules that were suggested on their boards.
will these people get credited? i don't really think so. these fans not even get a thank you. a "you know, you were damn right. we are the fools. sorry about that.". they are given 3 new manuals, $30 each (if you live in the u.s.a. probably $40 or more elsewhere). no errata. just the SRD that they would have updated anyway. wow!

2) when they give official information about the changes, they seem to do it as if they were doing us a personal favour.
if they're not sure about what is going to change, why don't they openly ask us?
if they already know, why are they keeping the secret? because they want to keep us wonder? because a third party could steal the idea and print a "fix the d20 system" book? because they like fame wars and enjoy seeing more?
I'm bitter here, i realise, but it's incredible that they can't give us the complete information at this stage. this is only going to hurt them.

in my humble opinion, they are really only trying to make more money out of the core books.
if not, they would have printed a d20 update book ALONG with the new core books (that are really useful for new fans, but not for old ones). they would have make clear that an errata will be available. they would have hired better editors for the original books. they would have listened to those that whined because not every monster in the MM had a figure.

if you think that i'm asking for the moon, i'm not. i decided to switch to GURPS. go checking the steve jackson website.
errata are up to date. they even have a page with the latest additions, so that you don't have to read the whole stuff again if they just added a line or two.
they have revised the core book. the additional material can be found on the site in one document. it's a free download.
when they switched form the 2nd edition to the 3rd one, they made a "GURPS update" book available, because: "while we hoped that everybody would want to buy the new edition, we couldn't very well demand it". ("we" is steve jackson games). the book contained all the new stuff and cost just 6 dollars, then.

please, don't answer my post saying that if i'm not happy with WotC i should change game system, or simply not buying the book. i'm not stupid (i don't think any of you is!), and i know what to do with my money without your advice.
i just say: don't accept change for the worse without doing nothing. if you're happy with wizards and their products, well, i'm happy for you. if you think that things are going don't in the toilet, don't just say: "well, it's the way anything is. yesterday's world was better".
this is exactly the attitude that makes anything go worse.

thank you for your attention. happy gaming. happy flaming (i assume there will be some... ).

simon.

 

[Maggan]

What more can WotC do?

if you think that i'm asking for the moon, i'm not. i decided to switch to GURPS. go checking the steve jackson website.
errata are up to date. they even have a page with the latest additions, so that you don't have to read the whole stuff again if they just added a line or two.

What more is it you want WotC to do?

I mean, WotC already offer downloadable errata. They offer downloadable rules clarifications. They offer their rules as a free download (minus the chargen section). They offer free adventures, free web enhancements, and a lot of other stuff.

What more can they do? is anyone else doing more than this? If so, what the heck are they doing that WotC aint doing?

They have stated that the changes will be made available in the SRD, on the date of publication of the new books. That means it will be downloadable for you to use, for free. Whether or not there will be a pdf with the changes hasn't been annonced, but hey, if people ask nicely, they might listen, and say that they will do it.

So what's the freaking problem? The fact that the errata has a bad layout? Is that the core of this complaint, that the changes are somehow difficult to read?

And why, oh why, is a revised version of the game "a change for the worse"? I've got my books, I play the game, and the new books won't change that. A bit. And all the changes will be heavily discussed, so I'm not in the least bit afraid that I will miss any of them. Or that they will be difficult to find.

Well, each to his own, I guess.

Maggan

 

[Darkness]

Re: How much do you want to bet

I'm hoping they explain why Bracers of Armor are armor, but they aren't armor, if you're a monk.

My take on it that bracers of armor aren't armor per se; they're just providing an AC bonus of the type "armor."

 

[Plane Sailing]

Neg Zero: Read Thalmin's post, and reference what others have said in dozens of posts over the past three years about their 1st edition books.

I don't know WHO Gygax got to bind those things, but those 1st edition books had calf-skin pages, bindings of dragon-sinew, spines made of Balrog-horn, and covers permeated with adamant. Those things have lasted generations with gamers who left them baking in cars, inundated with soda pop, buried under debris, and generally abused like red-headed stepchildren.

Funny, my experience was exactly the opposite - my (softbound) PHB and MM from 1e days fell into loose-leaf segments within about 6 months of purchase (I kid you not!). The hardback DMG survived, sure, but I've never had books as badly bound as my 1st edition PHB and MM.

 

[thalmin]

Funny, my experience was exactly the opposite - my (softbound) PHB and MM from 1e days fell into loose-leaf segments within about 6 months of purchase (I kid you not!). The hardback DMG survived, sure, but I've never had books as badly bound as my 1st edition PHB and MM.

We were referring to the US hardbound editions, especially the earliest ones. The revised covers weren't as good. I don't believe the softbound editions were available in the states.