WotC says "Return of the Red Box"

[Henry]

Hi, WSmith! Welcome back, even if it does take Red Box D&D to bring you back over here for a while.

Interesting tidbit: I picked up a worn copy of the old Moldvay Red Book while I was at Gencon, because the nostalgia drove me heavily; but after reading it, I was amazed to be reminded, through reading it, of its power and simplicity. D&D CAN be simplified for newcomers; it's doable, WotC just needs to do it along the line of the old box.

I understand fears of "splitting the market," but it needs to be weighed against the desire to bring in new roleplayers by more means than being introduced by exisiting players. The mass means of communication through the internet ensure that these new gamers will have connection to existing gamers if they want to supplement their experiences or clarify rules, but the biggest stigma out there to me is keeping new players from being preyed upon by arrogant existing players whose sole purpose is to insult other gamers for their lack of experience or different play style. (God help us, they're all over the internet - everybody has seen them around.)

New gamers aren't as hard to acquire with a game as vibrant, imaginative, and entertaining as D&D - but keeping them interested and free of derogatory elements is an important part of helping new gamers grow into experienced gamers.

 

[rounser]

If a group of experienced players finds the intro box too simplistic or not to their liking, I might be tempted to take that as a sign that the design of the intro box was probably closer to accomplishing its objectives, rather than it being a sign of poor design.

I think some of us were probably quite selfishly hoping for a "3E Lite" for ourselves. I do think you've got a very good point.

Maybe it's the "initiated gamer" in me talking, but I think one of the big appeals of D&D to the uninitiated is unlimited potential and the opportunity to create your own character or world. That definitely helped hook me on AD&D. The Adventure Game seemed extremely limited in that respect. So, although it may have been easy to pick up, perhaps it didn't have the heart and soul of D&D and promise of unlimited adventure that the original had in spades. Then again, maybe I'm talking bollocks.

 

[Emiricol]

From the feedback and information we received, the 3E Adventure Game box was a success, selling very nicely in mass channels. The Adventure Game was specifically built with new players in mind. The R&D staff used focus groups and market research (actually observing a number of groups of new players as they tried to learn the game right out of the box. They then reworked the design based on feedback from those groups).

The difficult thing about talking about the type of intro box that we would find cool is that we are no longer "uninitiated," our viewpoint is skewed to that of a player. There are aspects of the boxed set that we might think would be be cool (we might even be certain) to include, but one of the things we found when we designed the 3E Adventure Game is that the assumptions and viewpoint of the experienced player were often inadequate or incorrect when "applied" to a new player. If a group of experienced players finds the intro box too simplistic or not to their liking, I might be tempted to take that as a sign that the design of the intro box was probably closer to accomplishing its objectives, rather than it being a sign of poor design.

I hope that WOTC has the design time to utilize market reseearch and focus groups again when making the new ADventure Game. I also think that including pre-painted plastic minis is an advantage. It just wasn't cost-effective for us to do that the first time because of the price of tooling and the manufacturing lead time. Now that WOTC has it's own line of plastic minis, I think it should be very do-able.

Keith Strohm
Game Industry Lay-About

I sincerely hope you are wrong about how if it is insultingly stupid then it is right on target. It was a boxed set of the kind you dismiss as ineffective that got me - and most of the D&Ders I know - into the hobby in the first place. I'd suggest that perhaps the "idiot D&D" sold well - if in fact it did, I don't have numbers to go from - purely because it had shelf space outside of the niche hobby shops. The D&D I'm talking about would probably do as well if it got that same visibility. Plus I'd give it to my relatives and friends and so on.

 

[Obryn]

Marketing

Back when 3e came out a few years back, WotC did a whole lot of advertising trying to bring new folks into the game. I was the president of a swordfighting club at the time, and we were contacted by a marketing group - I forget their name, honestly. They came out to our school, set up a huge tent, and ran demo games using the Adventure Game for new players.

It was quite a production - they hired live actors, had a guy dressed up like Redgar, and gave away tons of free t-shirts, cups, and (most useful of all) D&D bottle openers. Yeah, seriously - little white plastic keychain bottle openers with the Dungeons & Dragons logo on them. I still have one. They had video, music, and huge banners - all in all, very impressive.

I'm pretty sure the night before, they also went out to some of the local bars, gave away shirts, and promoted the event.

IIRC, the event itself was mostly a flop, partly due to the rain. They only sold like 9-10 copies of the Adventure Game box.

Still, it impressed the hell out of me. Just wanted to point out that WotC hasn't been totally ignorant of decent marketing.

-O

 

[Graf]

I don't agree that creating a new "red box" is a good idea. If WotC wants to promote D&D to potential new players then PROMOTE D&D TO NEW PLAYERS!
~Derek

The idea that you should just throw people into the game because it's important to SUPPORT D&D AND ONLY D&D THE ONE TRUE D&D falls flat. Experienced people who have been playing D&D for years still have headaches related to D&D rules.
When people first start playing they can't understand it, so they're effectively simpifying the game anyway. A simple stripped down system with a couple of character classes and adventures is not going to destroy the hobby as we know it.

I fondly recall the red box. It was what started me playing. It's important to have something like that. Most important was the SOLO-intro adventure. The old box had a great little one (or at least it was great when I was 9) with the deceptive wizard who charmed you and the rust monster who destroyed your armor. It sounds cliche but I remember it like it was yesterday.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

All right I hate to say this, but the biggest benefit to a big red box, would be if it could disguise DnD.

It's the whole nintendo marketing themselves as a robot toy rather than a video game console thing.

Or comic series repackaging themselves as graphic novels.

Gets you into a wider variety of stores and in formates that are 'easier' for those stores to carry. A phenomena that is very literally true for graphic novels. Picking up comics scattered across the wide area of a large bookstore and then cramming them back into the narrow little racks they are relegated to is a terrible pain.

Something that could be played as demo even by something as mainstream as Hastings would be nice.

Though I remain unconvinced of that tactics effectiveness, it does convince my corporate masters that things are worth promoting if they are easy to promote.

BTW, Hastings=40% off the 3.5s.

And my corporate masters were much more aware of the issues surrounding WotC and 3.5 than I would ever have suspected them of being.

There are some people paying attention to this niche market.

Of course in books everything is a niche market, if I hear one more English grad student talking about popular culture as though it is a single entity I'm going to try selling them a romance novel and book of beat poetry.

 

[WSmith]

Thanks Henry. Between this and the Wilderlands thread, I am spending a few minutes here.

Anyone know anymore official info on this? I would love to get in on the design or playtest of this thing, (considering I already did a similar collection of rules to 5th level.)

 

[Kaodi]

d20 Lite

I think that perhaps we could be helping out the most by really making this thread hot, you know, pumping out the suggestions, the debates and such, and getting the people working on the project to come take a look. If we can help out at all, it is more likely that it will turn out to be really good.

Personally, I agree that it should be unsupported, but you should still have to tools to craft your own adventures. I think that either a level 5 or level 10 limit would be best (I lean toward level 5) with cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard as classes. Multiclassing should be in, but experience penalties should be out for basic. As for races, dwarf, elf, halfling and human would allow for the core D&D feel, and a good variance of ability bonuses and penalties. Skills should be predetermined, but feats should probably still be customizeable.
As for the rules, I also agree that cutting the spell list down to the basics would be good, and also cutting out things like grappling and AoO, which tend to generate enough confusion amongst the more experienced players as it is. A decent array of monsters is also important to catch the imagination. Things like orcs, goblins, trolls, skeletons, ogres, wyverns, elementals, etc, etc, etc and their ilk should be included, plus a few of the more bizarre creatures too.

To really go at this topic, it would take a book by book, chapter by chapter breakdown to do the job thoroughly, and if we want our input to be considered. After all, anything that doesn't agree with the market research can be disregarded.

 

[Emiricol]

Classes: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric
Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
Skills: Only the class skills for classes included
Spells: Only Clr and Wiz spells, spell level 1-3
Feats: Only those likely to be taken by level 5
Weapons: Just the common ones for the classes listed, plus Bastard Sword (and 3.5, so Dwarven weapons too).
Armors: All



Monsters: Common CR 1/4 - 7, and a selection of iconic more rare monsters; some statted dragons (ie Young Blue Dragon)



XP: Chart for CR 1-7, xp for same range, a simple "this much experience for this level" chart, and a note that XP is given for bypassing foes too, not just killing them
Conditions: Shortened versions
Magic Items: +1 and +2 armors, +1 weapons; only Minor Potions and those of spells available; Minor rings; Scrolls note on cost to make, but not listing; only Minor wands and those of spells available; iconic minor wondrous items

===============
That's what I'd include in the three books. Also, a set of dice, a thin pad of PC sheets, some nice maps (like the one in the DMG with associated counters).

I'd also include a FOURTH book as an introduction to role-playing and good adventure design principles, with some kick-starter charts (101 Adventure IDeas, etc.)

 

[Krieg]

Classes: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric
Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
Skills: Only the class skills for classes included
Spells: Only Clr and Wiz spells, spell level 1-3
Feats: Only those likely to be taken by level 5
Weapons: Just the common ones for the classes listed, plus Bastard Sword (and 3.5, so Dwarven weapons too).
Armors: All

Classes - Agree
Races - Agree (Racial classes?)
Skills - Set skill packages (Each class would get a set number of most commonly used skills maxed out)
No Feats
Weapons - Simple + Martial (No exotic)
Armors - Agree
Levels 1-10