D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Still, this suggests that maybe Dark Sun contains ideas that don't really need to be revisited through a 2023 update. It's okay to like something while accepting that it is of its time and should probably stay there.

I agree with the general sentiment that we can accept things were of their time. But I don’t believe Dark Sun was advocating anything bad of its time (even in 1990: the lessons of WWII and the evils of racialist science and slavery were well known). I doubt anyone seriously sees the inclusion of slavery as a setting element as an endorsement. It is just about emphasizing the brutality of the setting and enabling standard sword and sandal tropes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I agree with the general sentiment that we can accept things were of their time. But I don’t believe Dark Sun was advocating anything bad of its time (even in 1990: the lessons of WWII and the evils of racialist science and slavery were well known). I doubt anyone seriously sees the inclusion of slavery as a setting element as an endorsement. It is just about emphasizing the brutality of the setting and enabling standard sword and sandal tropes.

It seems like nowadays, including any negative element in your art (except general violence, for some reason) is the same to some very loud people as endorsing it.

 

[Irlo]

So a single hypothetical book being released with content you personally find exclusionary, means you are excluded from the hobby. The whole hobby, despite there being more content that you (I assume) dont find exclusionary than you can likely consume in a lifetime?

If it were a single hypothetical book, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. The content is pervasive. Feelings of exclusion build up over time, and it takes time to undo the damage.

 

[Remathilis]

I think you are reading a lot into these texts in order to help them fit comfortably into your world view. You are being very charitable in your interpretation of texts that don't seem super subtle, which again is a credit to you. Still, this suggests that maybe Dark Sun contains ideas that don't really need to be revisited through a 2023 update. It's okay to like something while accepting that it is of its time and should probably stay there.

I always read that as weak in-game justification for why Dark Sun PCs are "kewl and xtreme" and could totally crush PCs from those other wimpy lame settings, man.

Which is probably what turned me off to the setting more than anything else. It tried to dial the power up to 11 in a bid to be "moar hardkore" than any other D&D setting. PCs can have 20s in ability scores! They start at third level! They all have wild talents! You'll need it to survive! It was D&D by way of a monster truck rally commercial.

If they ever do decide to make a 5e Dark Sun, I hope all that power gaming nonsense remains left in the dust bin.

 

[Scribe]

If it were a single hypothetical book, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. The content is pervasive. Feelings of exclusion build up over time, and it takes time to undo the damage.

Dark Sun. Would be a single book.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If it were a single hypothetical book, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. The content is pervasive. Feelings of exclusion build up over time, and it takes time to undo the damage.

The single hypothetical book is Dark Sun 5e. Are you saying the existence of such a book would be the straw that breaks the camel's back for you?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I always read that as weak in-game justification for why Dark Sun PCs are "kewl and xtreme" and could totally crush PCs from those other wimpy lame settings, man.

Which is probably what turned me off to the setting more than anything else. It tried to dial the power up to 11 in a bid to be "moar hardkore" than any other D&D setting. PCs can have 20s in ability scores! They start at third level! They all have wild talents! You'll need it to survive! It was D&D by way of a monster truck rally commercial.

If they ever do decide to make a 5e Dark Sun, I hope all that power gaming nonsense remains left in the dust bin.

I certainly thought all that talk was exciting back in the 90s; it did the job is was written for. I don't need it personally anymore, but I would be sold on a worldbuilding faithful Dark Sun with decent new mechanics without it.

 

[Irlo]

Dark Sun. Would be a single book.

A single book? It's 40 years of D&D and the often racist tropes that have been uncritically imported from an even longer history of pulp (and mainstream) fiction. And Paizo's clumsy handling of slavery in its campaign setting and public play events. And the minstril art in Spelljammer. And the never-ending list of movies, books, and games including slavery that are pervasive in our culture.

Are you saying everything was hunky-dory for everyone until we started talking about a non-existant 5e DS? And now suddenly people are feeling excluded?

It's not sudden. It's not that people are either fine and dandy or they're excluded. The feelings build over time. How the community addresses these issues feeds back into feelings of acceptance or exclusion.

I'll say again. If it were a single hypothetical book, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The single hypothetical book is Dark Sun 5e. Are you saying the existence of such a book would be the straw that breaks the camel's back for you?

For me, no. I don't feel the exlusion. I recognize that others do. Would it be the final straw for some people? Maybe, but I don't suppose many would leave the hobby if DS 5e were published. But it would send a message, intended or not. Exlusion is not all or nothing.

 

[James Gasik]

I live in a country where parents in a southern state were so shocked and appalled that their kids were being taught about Renaissance art, including the works of Michelangelo, that they got the school principal fired. Calling the statue of David (among other works) "pornographic" and "potentially harmful to their children".

These were 6th graders, by the way, right in that 12+ age rating for D&D. If parents can freak over this, then the scantily clad heroes of Dark Sun, a world overrun by cruel tyrants who permit slavery and espouse eugenics while entertaining the masses with gladiatorial combat to the death are not going to immune to such insanity.

Never no mind the fact that climate change is certainly real on Athas, and is totally caused by human (and humanoid) activity, something that people rabidly deny on my completely non-fantastic planet.

So no, I'm not saying WotC cannot print Dark Sun in all it's 90's glory. I'm saying they'd be playing with dynamite to do so.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A single book? It's 40 years of D&D and the often racist tropes that have been uncritically imported from an even longer history of pulp (and mainstream) fiction. And Paizo's clumsy handling of slavery in its campaign setting and public play events. And the minstril art in Spelljammer. And the never-ending list of movies, books, and games including slavery that are pervasive in our culture.

Are you saying everything was hunky-dory for everyone until we started talking about a non-existant 5e DS? And now suddenly people are feeling excluded?

It's not sudden. It's not that people are either fine and dandy or they're excluded. The feelings build over time. How the community addresses these issues feeds back into feelings of acceptance or exclusion.

I'll say again. If it were a single hypothetical book, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

For me, no. I don't feel the exlusion. I recognize that others do. Would it be the final straw for some people? Maybe, but I don't suppose many would leave the hobby if DS 5e were published. But it would send a message, intended or not. Exlusion is not all or nothing.

Then I don't see this one hypothetical book being enough of a problem to not release it. Just like I've been saying all along, these elements have a place in RPGs.

 

[Scribe]

A single book? It's 40 years of D&D and the often racist tropes that have been uncritically imported from an even longer history of pulp (and mainstream) fiction. And Paizo's clumsy handling of slavery in its campaign setting and public play events. And the minstril art in Spelljammer. And the never-ending list of movies, books, and games including slavery that are pervasive in our culture.

I see I see.

So its not about the content of a single book. I dont think (what is framing?) that the conclusion to be drawn here is a particularly good one, but if this is your perspective on it, then I see that its not just a single book taken in context despite everything Wizards has done/said, excised via errata or outright replaced or retconned over the last near 10 years.

Thats interesting.

But it would send a message, intended or not.

And what message do you believe that would be?

These were 6th graders, by the way, right in that 12+ age rating for D&D. If parents can freak over this, then the scantily clad heroes of Dark Sun, a world overrun by cruel tyrants who permit slavery and espouse eugenics while entertaining the masses with gladiatorial combat to the death are not going to immune to such insanity.

Exactly, moral panic left and right.

 

[Laurefindel]

Again, subject vs object.
The subject of Dark Sun isn’t slavery or forced eugenics.

No, but one of its subjects is survival in an oppressive world, both socially and ecologically. The subjects of slavery and eugenics contribute to that, as ugly as they are, not unlike violent deaths and famines contribute to the terror and wars of Dragonlance.

To a certain extent it can be circumvented, like how physical and emotional torture or death without dignity could be left out of the violent death and famine elements that support the war and horror themes of Dragonlance, but I believe you can only go so far until it becomes easier to make another setting/story.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand and support WotC not going ahead with DS. Slavery and eugenics go against the values they want to espouse. But I’m also with them when they say it would be hard to remove these elements and remain true to the source material.

 

[Clint_L]

I live in a country where parents in a southern state were so shocked and appalled that their kids were being taught about Renaissance art, including the works of Michelangelo, that they got the school principal fired. Calling the statue of David (among other works) "pornographic" and "potentially harmful to their children".

These were 6th graders, by the way, right in that 12+ age rating for D&D. If parents can freak over this, then the scantily clad heroes of Dark Sun, a world overrun by cruel tyrants who permit slavery and espouse eugenics while entertaining the masses with gladiatorial combat to the death are not going to immune to such insanity.

I hope they don't get their hands on my vintage copy of Deities and Demigods. That book really did corrupt my impressionable young mind. In all the best ways.

For that matter, the original Monster Manual was NSFW by modern standards! The difference with Dark Suns is that you could update it while not losing the essence of the original (unless topless sphinxes were integral to your campaign setting, I suppose).

Edit: I wish I hadn't written that, because now my brain is stuck on trying to imagine a campaign setting that relies on topless sphinxes. I blame Deities and Demigods.

 

[James Gasik]

I hope they don't get their hands on my vintage copy of Deities and Demigods. That book really did corrupt my impressionable young mind. In all the best ways.

For that matter, the original Monster Manual was NSFW by modern standards! The difference with Dark Suns is that you could update it while not losing the essence of the original (unless topless sphinxes were integral to your campaign setting, I suppose).

Edit: I wish I hadn't written that, because now my brain is stuck on trying to imagine a campaign setting that relies on topless sphinxes. I blame Deities and Demigods.

AD&D 1st Edition art was a serious draw for many a teenaged gamer, I bet! And I'm sure the morally panicked of the 80's were upset about that, but they had a more immediate target of their ire:

TEH SATAHN!

(Sure, I know it's an Efreet. You know it's an Efreet. Now try telling some church-going 80's Karen that.)

 

[Clint_L]

Has that Efreet ever eaten a carb?

 

[James Gasik]

Has that Efreet ever eaten a carb?

Dude, he lives in a City made of Brass, on a lake of oil, in the Elemental Plane of Fire! Calories don't last a full combat round there!

 

[Irlo]

And what message do you believe that would be?

That gamers’ experiences and voices that have been marginalized over the years will continue to be marginalized.

This voice, for example.

Edit: I’m about to board a plane for vacation, and I hope to make it a vacation from ENWorld as well as from work. I’ll be interested to see what develops while I’m away.

 

[Scribe]

I’m about to board a plane for vacation, and I hope to make it a vacation from ENWorld as well as from work. I’ll be interested to see what develops while I’m away.

Enjoy your vacation!

 

[Bedrockgames]

Has that Efreet ever eaten a carb?

He must have had the Total Gym. It is no coincidence that thing was invented in 1974

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

If DS is cancelled because WotC fears a "moral panic", then it is not our fault, or theirs, but by the others. And if we allow the good sense was lost, then they aren't going to stop, because they are going to demmand more and more.

I want to know if the criteria by those "modern sensibilities" are enough reasonable.

I would rather to believe the delay of Dark Sun is because reasons linked about gameplay, for example the update the psionic powers, and the change about limits for classes and species. Other possible reason is because they are working in some special event to explain the reason of the reboot of the D&D multiverse. This event could be delayed if there is a future acquisition or merger, and then more IPs would be added to the D&D multiverse.

Dark Sun can continue in other type of products: novels, comics and videogames.

* If there is a TTRPG about a distopian uchrony style "Man in the High Castle" where nazis won the WWII, could suffer a "moral panic"? Or a G.I.Joe sourcebook about an alternate timeline where world is a global dictatorship under the controll by COBRA?

* Maybe any elements aren't wellcome among the modern sensibilities, but in the update version we don't need mention them.