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WotC_PeterS: Class Names| NEW: Rouse-ist parts of PHB
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 4046287" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>Except, as I pointed out, they <em>do</em>. Or rather, they used to. 3E changed what a Barbarian is to such an extent that you're probably right about that (he bears little to no resemblence to the 1E Barb and little similarity to the 2E Barb). Thieves had skills related to thievery, which naturally includes surprise attacks. I've never come across anyone, no matter how "new to RPGs" who was surprised or "didn't expect" a thief to be able to make some kind of surprise attack. Trap-disarming is a thieving skill, and was associated with larcenous characters long before D&D. Who is surprised by that?</p><p></p><p>Rogue is far more vague. It<em> is </em> better in the long run (but confuses players in the short term, in my experience), because it offers more possible interpretations of the character's role, as noted by other posters, but it's the exact same <em>sort</em> of name as Fighter, which is what I was mainly commenting on (criticising one for those reasons whilst lauding the other is a bit wierd, to say the least).</p><p></p><p>I do agree that IF the Barbarian's main deal is Berzerking, then he should be a Berzerker (he should also lose the unconnected nature-oriented skill-set). However, I think that's a pretty damn lame main deal, so I'd rather see them expand his options (and particularly take him back to being "anti-magic"), which is what they've hinted at doing.</p><p></p><p>As for the people whining about Barbarian being cultural, well, dudes, so is Ranger who uses a bow and sneaks through the forest being friends with the animals, yet no-one seems to complain about that. As for it being perjorative, I'm pretty sure Barbarians have reclaimed it successfully <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> The original 1E Barbarian was PROUD to be a Barbarian, not a weak, soft city-dweller or farmer. The 3E Berserker with some nature skills is admittedly more confused (but then in 3E they couldn't have designed a character who didn't use magical items without him seeming wildly overpowered and illustrative of the horrible magic-item-obsession of 3E's system).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This sounds a lot like "Evil PCs make players behave like disruptive morons!" to me. I.e. blame the system for silly players. I've seen just as much/little "I steal it from Party Member Y's backpack" from Rogues as Thieves.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 4046287, member: 18"] Except, as I pointed out, they [I]do[/I]. Or rather, they used to. 3E changed what a Barbarian is to such an extent that you're probably right about that (he bears little to no resemblence to the 1E Barb and little similarity to the 2E Barb). Thieves had skills related to thievery, which naturally includes surprise attacks. I've never come across anyone, no matter how "new to RPGs" who was surprised or "didn't expect" a thief to be able to make some kind of surprise attack. Trap-disarming is a thieving skill, and was associated with larcenous characters long before D&D. Who is surprised by that? Rogue is far more vague. It[I] is [/I] better in the long run (but confuses players in the short term, in my experience), because it offers more possible interpretations of the character's role, as noted by other posters, but it's the exact same [I]sort[/I] of name as Fighter, which is what I was mainly commenting on (criticising one for those reasons whilst lauding the other is a bit wierd, to say the least). I do agree that IF the Barbarian's main deal is Berzerking, then he should be a Berzerker (he should also lose the unconnected nature-oriented skill-set). However, I think that's a pretty damn lame main deal, so I'd rather see them expand his options (and particularly take him back to being "anti-magic"), which is what they've hinted at doing. As for the people whining about Barbarian being cultural, well, dudes, so is Ranger who uses a bow and sneaks through the forest being friends with the animals, yet no-one seems to complain about that. As for it being perjorative, I'm pretty sure Barbarians have reclaimed it successfully ;) The original 1E Barbarian was PROUD to be a Barbarian, not a weak, soft city-dweller or farmer. The 3E Berserker with some nature skills is admittedly more confused (but then in 3E they couldn't have designed a character who didn't use magical items without him seeming wildly overpowered and illustrative of the horrible magic-item-obsession of 3E's system). This sounds a lot like "Evil PCs make players behave like disruptive morons!" to me. I.e. blame the system for silly players. I've seen just as much/little "I steal it from Party Member Y's backpack" from Rogues as Thieves. [/QUOTE]
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