Would D&D be easier if...

Bloodsparrow said:
It's already easier, they got rid of thac0. That's all I needed. :)

They didn't get rid of it, they just removed the name and moved the equation around.

The basic game was still too complex. I can't tell you exact reason why becasue I got rid if it since it didn't do the job I needed it to do. They need a game with fewer classes, fewer skills, and fewer feats. The less choices the more simplistic the game. And then they need modules oriented to this simplier game.
 

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S'mon said:
I've been playing 20 years or so & I definitely prefer an easy, non-intimidating system. IME it is very very rarely the veteran players who want a rule for every situation.
Well, it's more than very rarely. There are some veterans that know how to use reasonable judgment when the rules does not cover it, and some veterans that rely on the letter of the rules without having to make houserule to cover the gaps.
 

I think that WotC might consider a Basic Set that introduces players to the game, and perhaps covers a small range of levels. (Perhaps the first five or at most the first ten levels. The first five levels should suffice to give players a taste of the larger game. The PCs can still do many remarkable things -- from curing disease to casting fireballs to defeating deadly foes -- in a five level range.) I think that one of the reasons why the D&D Basic/Expert/ sets and other sets were not reintroduced is to not have a game that is competing with the main product. I think that one of TSR's greatest failures was in splitting a market with competing settings. So, perhaps it is understandable that WoTC might not want to split the market.

However, I think it may be possible to create an introductory version of the game that is complementary with the Core Rules. I think an introductory version might provide people an entry into gaming that can allow people to determine if they want to commit to a larger rules set. Most players only need the PHB and some dice.

Possibly such a product might have extensive online support, as well as information about what to do when your characters have hit the top level supported by the set. (There is also some talk about an introductuory game in the Attracting People to Gaming -- Ideas and Strategies link in my sig.)
 

Emirikol said:
Would D&D be easier to play (and learn for noobs) if there were more classes and fewer feats? What's so hard for WotC to add new classes (instead of dumping impossible prestige classes on us)? Is it just to have material in the form of feats and spells to fill up books?

I vote for more classes. At it's extreme, we have unearthed arcana's main 3 classes and thousands of feats..but there's no other option..unless you consider doing the calculus it takes to figure out how to 'obtain' a prestige class.

jh
No. Ick. Feats are good.
 

I am for the following:
1) adding a few extra base classes (e.g., a PC aristocrat or Courtier, the swashbuckler, an OA shaman, a more traditional shaman (preferably like that in GR's Shaman's Handbook, but the Spirit Shaman will do) and a battle sorceror type class)

2) adding several examples of variant classes (e.g. cloistered cleric, the wilderness rogue, urban ranger, barbarian hunter, the monk variants, and the thug variant of the fighter) as examples of how to tailor the classes. The combination of classes and variants provide numerous options that can represent cultural or environmental variants that characters should be able to play at the start and also help the DM shape the cultural and environmental aspects of his campaign .

3) Keeping feats, perhaps eliminating some or many

Now, I know a lot of people say variant classes are too close to 2e kits and then knock the 2e kits. In my opinion, 2e kits were a good idea too often done with poor execution. The idea behind the the kits of fine tuning standard classes to fit standard variations was good. The problem I think was due to 2e mechanics which were weak in comparison to 3.X . 2e lacked 3.X streamlined and integrated mechanics as well as additional features (e.g. feats). The result was the kit designers created goofy mechanics (e.g., the fighter kit with bonus that was the character acted " as if under an alarm spell" ) to patch a hole in the rules or they often created unbalanced kits (there were probably some other reasons as well for the latter).

That said I thnk some of the 2e kits worked very well. I definitely liked the Complete Thief's and Complete Druid's Handbooks kits and all. So, I think the concept can be done well and I think that the 3.x mechanics when combined with the addition of a few additional base classes would be a good start in helping the players find a better concept fit for thier characters and variants would help tailor the character further (while improving multiclassing by giving the character more abliity to stay on focus with concept). for example

Aristocrat: Courtiers, Nobles, Merchants. Focus on Leadership, social interaction abilities and the ability to use influence to call in favors. Variants would include for a more martial or roguish aristocrat (including spies). Another variant might work for a non-spellcasting bard.

Barbarian: a warrior figting with rage or passion. Variants can include the Barbarian Hunter from UA, or an Urban Barbarian (make a few modiifications incluidng swap out skills similar to the rogue/wilderness rogue or Ranger/Urban ranger).

Bard: personally I would like to see this as a master of lore, social interaction, with enchanting performance (music, singing, oratory, or storytelling) rather than the jack of all trades. Spells would be focused on Charm and Illusion with additional modification determined by the variant type (e.g, arcane sage, divine bard, or rogue). Variants might include the Arcane Sage (gets additional arcane spells) , Divine Bard (addition of curing and priestly spells), Roguish Bard (only spells focused on charm, trickery, illusion ,but more skill focused)

Battle Sorceror: for characters equally focused on arcane casting spells and martial capability

Cleric: Returns to the idea of previous additions of teh Cleric being a Martial Priests serving a deity. It is the warrior/priest class (for non warrior priests, see the priest below). Variant includes the include Champion of good from UA

Druid: Personally, I think the druid coud be as priest or shaman with the right domains (see both Priest and Shaman below). The priest and Shaman are more broad archetypes.

Fighter: warriors relying soley on martial prowess. For a fighter with a more skill focused background you could use the Thug from the PHB as a guideline. By switching some skills you could get numerous variants including an ex hunter, an ex mariner. The character could also trade medium armor for another concept related feat.

Monk: nonspellcasting martial artist. Variants including the steadfast monk, warrior monk et.

Paladin: I think returning the cleric to the religous spellcasting warrior would rmakes the Paladin superflous. For Joan of Arc type characters and other characters with blessed abilities, who do not cast spells, I could see creating a True Faith feat tree. The True faith feat tree would be for representing non-divine spellcaster who are blessed with abilities. Feats in the might include the ability to turn undead (which keeps with literature and film of any faithful truly faithful christian or catholic being able to turn a vampire) Divine Strength. some kind of Augury ability (hearing the voice of god), etc.

Priest: non martial priests serving a diety. Variant Cloistered CLeric

Ranger: I can see the ranger remaining as an archetype of a warrior/spellcaster. However to do so , I think spells should begin much earlier so it is more of an equal emphasis on warrior/spellcaster (not getting spells until later makes me feel a prestige class is more approriate) . More martial focused could multiclass with barbarian or a wilderness fighter variant. while a desire to forcus more on skills at a given time could be done by multi class with wilderness rogue variant.

Rogue: Focused on stealth. By choosing a wilderness or urban you can better choose the type of focus of your character. There should be more options to be substituted for sneak attack at various levels so characters could have some sneak attack or none at all based upon concept

Shaman, OA: martial arts spell casting priest. variants would be by type of spells (i.e., shaman oriented, divine oriented, or arcane oriented)

Shaman: spell casters dealing with spirits (e.g., ancenstral, totem, etc.) rather than deities

Swashbuckler: a lightly armored fighter with a bit of roguish flair.

Sorceror: innate arcane spell casters

Wizards: Scholarly arcane spellcasters

Specialist Wizards: Personally, I would like to see the UA variants abilities standard. I would also like to see a return to Specialists having their own lists.
 

Emirikol said:
Would D&D be easier to play (and learn for noobs) if there were more classes and fewer feats? What's so hard for WotC to add new classes (instead of dumping impossible prestige classes on us)? Is it just to have material in the form of feats and spells to fill up books?

Personally I think D&D 3.5 is fine as is providing that just the three core books are used. IMX Its when extra material is used that noobies tend to get confused.
 

Emirikol said:
Would D&D be easier to play (and learn for noobs) if there were more classes and fewer feats?

The reverse, in my opinion. If I wanted to make the game really simple for a new player, I'd only use the basic classes from UA or else I'd use True20 from Green Ronin. I'd also use weapon group proficiencies with related feat chains.
 

Greg K said:
I am for the following:

That's all interesting stuff, Greg. But I think it would just intimidate or overwhelm new players. I've taught several people to play 3e, and they all felt overwhelmed by the base classes. Adding more would probably have scared them away entirely. And truely, all of those character concepts you posted can already be achieved with judicious feat selection or multiclassing. :)
 

Buttercup said:
And truely, all of those character concepts you posted can already be achieved with judicious feat selection or multiclassing. :)

I hate the use of multiclassing among the core classes for trying to model character concepts. First, I think multiclasing does a poor job when it comes to representing many common fantasy archetypes which are better served by either a new bases class or the tweaking of an existing one (i.e., class variants). Second, I think newbies would find it more helpful to have more classes to cover more fantasy archetypes with each class containing a few variants for tweaking the archetype, because everything is right in front of them.

Examples of concepts served best by new core classes are the OA Monk, the Shaman, the Swashbuckler, and a fully statted Battle Sorceror (emphasizing someone trained equally in martial prowess and arcane casting). These new classes eliminate a mechanical feel of jumping between extremes by providing a consistant feel appropriate to the archetype by providing a consistant list of appropriate class skills and class features across 20 levels
while avoiding the introduction of inapproriate baggage or in many cases having to wait for a Prc to adequaely model an archetype that should be playable from 1st level

Example of concepts best served as class variants (tweaks of existing classes) are the majority of variants (e.g., wilderness rogue, urban ranger, and steadfast monk) presented in UA (I prefer the idea of a battle sorceror as its own fully statted class since it is a common dommon enough archetype ).
 

If wishes were fishes...

Ok, I'll throw my 2 coppers into this mix and create a "simpler" D&D...

Classes: Fighter (Str), Rogue (Dex), Monk (Con), Wizard (Int), Cleric (Wis), Bard (Cha)

Fighters are the best at combat. Rogues are skill-users, Monk is about kewl abilities, Wizard is arcane/blam-o magic, cleric is healy/divine magic, and Bard is about buffing/enchanting magic.

Advanced classes (in other books) could cover barbarian/beserkers, rangers, paladins, etc.

Races: Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Goliath (non-ecl version). covers most typical fanasty stereotypes.

Skills: A skill is either unknown (just ability mod), known (1/2 level + Ab) or class (level + ab). Combine common skills into just a handful. (Stealth, Perception, etc). You have a number of class skills based on SP, the rest of your list is known, everything else is unknown.

Feats: Only skills that give a bonus (+1 to hit, +3 skill use, +2 fort save) in the basic book. Ignore feats that grant new abilities for now/remove AoOs.

Spells: Go to a Psionic/WoT style system where spells can be upgraded. There is one cure spell and depending on what slot you cast it at determines how much your healed for example. Make all casters Spontaneous casters (bye-bye memorization).

That should go a long way to reducing clutter.
 

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