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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kagayaku" data-source="post: 7164804" data-attributes="member: 6876021">Ok, I've now skimmed through all the spells in the PHB and read all the responses here (thanks everyone!). I found 40 spells that use Dex Saves (For those interested I've attached the list. I've probably missed some, but there's only a certain level of thoroughness I'm willing to invest <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />). Of those only 6 (Blade Barrier, Conjure Barrage, Conjure Volley, Cordon of Arrows, Hail of Thorns, Ice Storm) seemed like obvious fits for AC Saves to me (though I can still see differences of opinion on that). Another 3 (Acid Splash, Guardian of Faith, and Wall of Thorns) I could easily make an argument for either way. Some of these spells actually have similar spells, like Melf's Acid Arrow, that use a Spell Attack Roll. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />Whatever the case, I think an AC Save would have is uses for Area of Effect (such as Conjure Volley, and just regular volleys) but the confusion caused by interaction with other effects (buffs to saves, conditions, etc.) makes me think that, as a few people have suggested, I should just use plain attack rolls for these spells. I'd consider instead having a Defence Roll (essentially the exact same thing but mechanically it counts as an Attack Roll so bonuses would be applied to the other side) but for the confusion I think it would cause it might just be quicker to roll an Attack Roll for each player in turn after all. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> Sadly it just doesn't feel right to me for the players to roll an Attack Roll on the GM's/another player's behalf and hope for a low roll. I guess I can't win every time!Aaah I see, I like this as an ad-hoc bonus actually. I think if a player asks and sets the scene of them sheltered behind their metal shield I'd happily grant the +2 vs a spell like Fireball.I think I may well do this, I just wish there was a better way of handling area of effect attacks than using the same hit roll for all targets, rolling each target individually, or getting the players to roll it on my behalf... maybe I just need more dice... why didn't I think of this 2 days ago? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />Ah I see. Thanks for sharing your 4e insight, it's interesting to see how they changed things around, especially as it does sound somewhat simpler. I like the sound of it but also the idea of the players having as many rolls as possible relative to the GM. I don't think I want to be making an Attack Roll per character in an Area of Effect either :/Unfortunately I'm rolling back on it now! xD The edge cases are actually a pretty big reason, I could call it a Defence Roll and say anything that applies to Attack Rolls applies but in reverse... I think my players would yell at me <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />I agree on dropping the Dex Proficiency bonus. Unfortunately I've also decided that with so many interactions with other effects and spells, the AC Save doesn't make much sense after all for me. >.Because of the complications of interactions with spells like Shield of Faith and Haste I've actually now abandoned the idea. Having AC a defence rolled by the player is pretty much where I was going with it though, I think it would speed up Area of Effect attacks tremendously. Maybe there's still something to be tested in that...I've decided there are enough inconsistencies in this game to make my head spin for a week. A lot of them do seem to add to the fun though!This is all I wanted! Why is it never so simple? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /></blockquote>

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