D&D 5E Would having an AC Save (similar to DEX Save) be a good or terrible idea?

[kagayaku]

I did a quick look around and didn't find any mention of this, but sorry if it's been discussed before and I just missed it. I'm considering using it for incoming volleys of arrows.

The AC Save would be: AC - 10 + d20 (so if unarmoured it is just a DEX save), and if you have proficiency with DEX saves, you also have proficiency with AC Saves (because unarmoured is just a DEX save and they cover a lot of similar stuff).

My reasoning for suggesting it is that sometimes the uses of DEX saves don't seem to make much sense for someone in heavy armour, and I can see this being an annoyance to my fully armoured players. In my volley of arrows example having a shield would be of no benefit, which seems unintuitive, and if you also have no proficiency with shields you would actually be worse off (having disadvantage on the save).

I understand why DEX saves make sense for keeping balance, rolling out of grapples, and spells like Light and Web that just need to connect with you in some way to be effective.

It doesn't seem to make sense though that spells like Cordon of Arrows and Conjure Volley should ignore plate armour and shields. Conjure Volley says it is hundreds of pieces of normal ammunition being volleyed, I can't imagine how being dexterous would be more advantageous in that situation than being covered in plate or having a shield on your arm to put between yourself and the volley.

This is unplaytested (and I am new to GMing) but intuitively this doesn't seem complex, and provides a little more realism. All the GM has to do is make a reasonable call about what kind of save to use (though admittedly in some cases, such as Acid Splash and Burning Hands arguments could be made either way.).

If it seems too much of a buff to high AC characters, then how about also using the Armour's DEX cap as a cap on DEX Save modifiers as well (so in full plate DEX is 0)? Again, this isn't complex and I think it would be harder to keep your footing on crumbling rocks in heavy armour than in no armour at all.

My biggest concern would be that too many uses for DEX saves would become AC saves, and nerf high DEX characters. But I don't have enough experience with the game to make a good guess either way on this.

Thanks for reading!
Kagayaku

Just realised I can make a poll. I'll do that. I haven't voted yet as I'm really not sure either way, hence asking xD

 

[KarinsDad]

Dex is already the God of ability scores. Giving it one more thing makes Dex even more important.

 

[JeffB]

NM...misunderstood

 

[Oofta]

If you have a problem with a spell like Cordon of Arrows, just change it from a reflex save to an attack.

AC is already it's own kind of save ... it just reverses which side has to roll the D20.

 

[Tony Vargas]

. In my volley of arrows example having a shield would be of no benefit, which seems unintuitive, ...
I understand why DEX saves make sense for keeping balance, rolling out of grapples, and spells like Light and Web that just need to connect with you in some way to be effective.

Well, make contact with your shield or armor... Webs sticking to you plate will slow you up at least ea effectively as they would sticking to your clothes, and metal armor offers no meaningful protection against fire/ frost/lighting

But a shield could help with a lot of that, it's essentially portable cover.

One variant I've considered is letting proficiency with a Shield apply proficiency to some saves, particularly DEX saves for half damage. You could also allow a shield user to substitute the shield's +2 for his DEX mod.

 

[Xeviat]

Would you be switching to Attack Ratings instead of Attack Rolls and simply having AC be the rolled component?

I do think that armor could protect you from some of the Dexterity save for half damage effects; at least, your leather armor will soak up some of the fireball. After all, would you rather be naked in a fireball or have some covering?

Shields provided Reflex Save bonus in 4E. I liked that. The Shield Master feat brings that back in 5E.


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[ccs]

Seems like unnecessary work to completely re-do how AC works - just to end up with the same results.

 

[kagayaku]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

If you have a problem with a spell like Cordon of Arrows, just change it from a reflex save to an attack.

AC is already it's own kind of save ... it just reverses which side has to roll the D20.

I think that's pretty much what the AC Save would do isn't it? It just means the players all roll instead of the GM rolling once for everyone, or chucking a bunch for once each. It's not exactly equivalent if it still lets players use their DEX Save Proficiency but otherwise I think it's the same?

Well, make contact with your shield or armor... Webs sticking to you plate will slow you up at least ea effectively as they would sticking to your clothes, and metal armor offers no meaningful protection against fire/ frost/lighting

But a shield could help with a lot of that, it's essentially portable cover.

One variant I've considered is letting proficiency with a Shield apply proficiency to some saves, particularly DEX saves for half damage. You could also allow a shield user to substitute the shield's +2 for his DEX mod.

The Web example was meant to be in favour of DEX saves, not AC saves. I can see that wasn't very clear though. I like the shield proficiency idea, that seems pretty easy and makes a lot of sense, not sure about the +2 instead of DEX mod though, as then a Dexterous character can't get any benefit from a shield. I guess maybe a shield could count as half cover, though essentially it's the same thing and adding on the +2 for the shield. :'D

A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.

- 5E SRD

Dex is already the God of ability scores. Giving it one more thing makes Dex even more important.

I don't think it would be one more thing as the things being converted to AC saves would all be Dex saves to begin with. I think this would actually take away from pure Dex in favour of high AC.

Would you be switching to Attack Ratings instead of Attack Rolls and simply having AC be the rolled component?

I do think that armor could protect you from some of the Dexterity save for half damage effects; at least, your leather armor will soak up some of the fireball. After all, would you rather be naked in a fireball or have some covering?

Shields provided Reflex Save bonus in 4E. I liked that. The Shield Master feat brings that back in 5E.


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I think that first line is essentially what would be happening, yes. But rather than the GM rolling attacks against everyone, or one attack for everyone, the players all roll to save their own skin.

I'd rather be covered for sure, but I don't want to take away all the Dex saves so I was kind of looking for excuses to still use Dex. I guess that's a pretty major drawback of the AC save... Maybe I need to have a look through the Dex Save spells and see how many would logically fall into each camp before I can assess that for balancing...

Thanks for mentioning the Shield Master feat - we haven't used any feats yet so I hadn't seen it. I've quoted the relevant text below. I like it but I don't think it's exactly what I'm looking for because it still ignores plate, but it's something to consider as an alternative. I may have to consider implications of an AC Save on that feat too.

- If you aren’t incapacitated, you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
- If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

Seems like unnecessary work to completely re-do how AC works - just to end up with the same results.

I wasn't proposing using the AC Save instead of Attack Rolls, just Dex Saves that logically/thematically would be more advantaged by heavy armour than dexterity. Alternatively I could have the spellcaster/GM roll an attack for each target instead of having the targets make AC saves, but that seems more cumbersome to me.

Personally, I'm still not sure either way. It looks like the consensus is no but somehow that's making me want to try it more than I did before >.<

 

[Raith5]

I think it is too complicated. I actually prefer it to be like 4e: the attacker always rolls no matter the type of attack.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Interesting concept, but i haven't given to it much thought. I'm gonna hold the vote, until more people chime in and give me more basis to make a decision on