Faolyn
(she/her)
I don't think most people were too cool on that idea.
OTOH, when the other classes get done, the archetypes can be rewritten to fit them all.
D&D General Vote Up a 5e-Alike: Fighter Draft 2, plus Archetypes (and a poll)
OTOH, when the other classes get done, the archetypes can be rewritten to fit them all.
CreamCloud0
One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
oh, it wasn't a popular idea? i can't say i noticed that opinion being voiced but maybe that was just tunnel vision on my part, the mix and match class design very much appeals to me personally
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
1 I like having lots of different maneuvers but wonder if they should be sorted by Fighting Styles or even grouped to Roles rather than just an alphabetical list. When building a character it would be nice to know if a given maneuver is going to help my 'Armor Master' or 'Bodyguard' or 'Duelist style' maybe add a Mobility style (swashbuckler) and a Commander.
2 I would rather Spells be kept out of the Fighter Archetypes entirely, even with the Holy Warrior. Give them Auras and more Channel Divinity powers instead or ship out to Cleric
3 I do think a Knight or Marshall/Commander Archetype would be a great addition (especially if Holy Warrior gets shipped out to Cleric)
4 Called Shots - while I like the mechanic of imposing conditions, I am wondering why only Archer gets them. Should it be available to all Fighters?
5 I'm also thinking your Origins list could be linked to Warrior Learnings
eg
2 I would rather Spells be kept out of the Fighter Archetypes entirely, even with the Holy Warrior. Give them Auras and more Channel Divinity powers instead or ship out to Cleric
3 I do think a Knight or Marshall/Commander Archetype would be a great addition (especially if Holy Warrior gets shipped out to Cleric)
4 Called Shots - while I like the mechanic of imposing conditions, I am wondering why only Archer gets them. Should it be available to all Fighters?
5 I'm also thinking your Origins list could be linked to Warrior Learnings
eg
ORIGIN 1d8 | BONUS | WARRIOR LEARNING (Level 3) | |||||||
| 1 You were recruited to the army | Skill Expertise: Athletics Extra: Military Rank -You also add your proficiency bonus to Charisma checks when dealing with military generals, soldiers, and veterans. | Military History Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about wars, military action, tactics, heroes of battles, and famous weapons and suits of armor. | |||||||
| Skill Expertise : Insight
| Bounty Hunter: Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about criminals and mercenaries, how to find your way around an urban environment, and on rolls made to track humanoids | |||||||
| Skill Expertise: Persuasion
| Champion of the Court: Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about nobles, heraldry, and politics. | |||||||
| Skill Expertise: Survival (Urban)
| Street Fighter: Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about a city’s layout, as well as when you are looking for locations and contacts in the city. | |||||||
| Skill Expertise: Investigation
| Urbane Fighter: Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about a city’s history, as well as when you are looking for important people and locations in that city. | |||||||
| .Skill Expertise: Nature
| Monster Hunter: Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about three types of monsters chosen from the following list: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, or undead | |||||||
| 7 You learned in the wilderness, hunting beasts and learning to survive | Skill Expertise: Survival
| Wilderness Warrior: Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about beasts and plants, about natural environments, and on rolls made to survive in the wilderness. | |||||||
| Skill Expertise: Athletics
| Natural Athlete: Add your proficiency bonus when making checks to recall information about different Fighting styles and on athletics rolls |
Faolyn
(she/her)
Join us... join us...
I welcome any constructive criticism!
I imagine that they will only be used for your first class--IME, most people who multiclass don't do so after a long-enough training time to really warrant getting three new contacts--it's either a meta-decision or something happens in-game to justify the multiclassing. There will be times, though, when a long training period will be appropriate, such as if there's a timeskip. I imagine that whether or not the origins will be used for the new class will be a GM decision.
I do own Beyond The Wall. I just haven't read it thoroughly yet. I suffer from Too Many Game Books syndrome.
Good points--that's definitely something that needs to be made clearer. If, as you say, you're proficient in History and have Champion of the Court, then I can see three options: you get to add your PB even if you're doing so twice, or, you only add your PB if you're not proficient, or, you can add half your PB, even if you are proficient.
I've seen the second option--add PB if you're not proficient--quite often in 5e, but can make the trait useless if you're already proficient in History or various Charisma skills.
I'm thinking that I should change it to half PB, no matter what. I'll also switch it to just Intelligence checks. Makes me think, though, that there should be a Common Knowledge skill, and History should be used for historical things (my current DM likes to use it as a Common Knowledge skill, and I've never been sure how I feel about that.)
As for your potential scenario... yeah, it can happen, I know. One would hope that the player would take a Learning that was appropriate to the way they've been playing so far, but we all know that's not going to happen with every player.
Another good point. Hmm. PB times per long rest? As many times as you like, but only once per individual (or group) per long rest?
Yeah, the consensus is definitely to reduce the number. I've started to look through the list to see which ones can be either combined or just tossed.
I'll take these into consideration. The game is supposed to be at least a bit grittier than regular D&D--hence the reduced number of hit dice--rather than more power-game, and hopefully the use of maneuvers for all martials will aid those who want more than just more damage dice.
Well, the archetypes are definitely rough drafts, and these particular ones are just either common tropes or classes reimagined into archetypes.
I'm taking two things into consideration with the archetypes. One, people mentioned wanting an open-ending system. Unlike D&D, which pretty much stops at 20th level, a lot of people wanted the game to go on to a potentially infinite number of levels. And two, we all know most games don't even get to 15th level. So my actual goal--and I admit I likely did not accomplish it this draft--is to front-load abilities and to have those early abilities continually improve as you go up in level. Hence why most of the abilities say you get another bonus or whatever every X levels.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Completely agree with (2) and (4) here; though I'd expand called shots to be available to anyone as a universal rule if they're to be included at all.
I also agree with (3) and (1) except I shudder at the idea of any sort of "Commander" class or archetype. There might be design space for a Tactician, if that's what you're after, but I'm not sure it would have enough to do in play without it turning into a de-facto party boss (which is what I very much want to avoid, hence no Commander).
Faolyn
(she/her)
They almost certainly should be. I'm going over them now and trying to figure out which ones to keep and which to get rid of, so I'll try also sorting them by type.
I agree very much. I wouldn't mind giving them a cantrip like guidance, but I have no problem with them not having anything more powerful than that.
Yeah, it should be. I'm thinking it should be a general rule instead of an Archer rule.
I like this but--people can still make their own origins; the tables are just suggestions. So I could do something like that as examples and give a suggestion on how to do your own.
Faolyn
(she/her)
Let's reduce the number of maneuvers
Since yes, there are far too many. The following maneuvers (with abbreviated descriptions) let you add your maneuver die to your damage roll and we don't need all of them. I'm currently ignoring the maneuvers that are sub-maneuvers of one that doesn't give you that damage bonus (like Read Opponent, which has Assessment as a pre-req). Which of these maneuvers should be kept, which can be removed entirely, and which can turned into a sub-maneuver.
Charge: Take Dash as a bonus action, make an attack and add maneuver die to damage. Has two sub-maneuvers, one of which allows you to inflict your maneuver die on the creatures you trample as you charge past them.
Cleave: Add maneuver die to damage roll and make another attack against a second creature.
Confusing Blow: Add maneuver die to damage roll and either give an ally advantage on its next attack against the creature or cause the creature to have disad on its next attack (until start of your next turn).
Disarming Strike: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Reflexes save or drop an object that it is holding.
Doubleshot: Fire two missiles/pieces of ammo with one attack roll. If you hit, you roll damage die twice and add maneuver die. One of its sub-maneuver, Manyshot, allows you to roll damage dice three times and add maneuver, spreading the dice among either one or two targets.
Doublestrike: Attack with two weapons with one attack roll. If you hit, you roll damage die twice and add maneuver die.
Drive Back: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Fortitude save or you and the target move up to half your speed in a direction of your choice. I think this is redundant with Powerful Shove.
Focus Their Attention: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Will save or it has disad on attacks made against targets other than you. Its sub-maneuver, Draw Attention, lets your ally make an attack and add half the maneuver die to their damage roll.
Frightful Attack: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Will save or become frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
Lunge: Add maneuver die to damage roll and increase your reach by 5 feet.
Make Them Fall: If a creature misses on an opportunity attack against you, you can expend a maneuver die and force it to make a Reflexes save or fall prone, and you can then use your reaction to attack and add maneuver die to damage roll. I think maybe I should get rid of this one, because it's so circumstantial.
Mighty Blow: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Fortitude save or have its speed reduced to 0.
Opportunistic Blow: Add maneuver die to damage of opportunity attack. I just realized that if maneuvers aren't limited to being usable only on your turn, then this isn't necessary--when you make an opportunity attack, you can just use a maneuver.
Powerful Shove: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Fortitude save or either be pushed 15 feet away or fall prone. Perhaps Mighty Blow should be a sub-maneuver of this one.
Quickfire: Add maneuver die to damage roll of either a missile weapon or a thrown weapon; can draw ammo/weapon as part of attack.
Ranged Opportunity Attack: Add maneuver die to damage roll of a ranged attack. This could be a sub-maneuver of Quickfire. Or vice versa.
Riposte: When attacked and missed, use reaction to spend maneuver die to attack that creature, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Skillful Feint: Use bonus action to expend maneuver die to gain advantage on attack roll against a creature, add maneuver die to damage roll. Is this redundant with Confusing Blow?
Sniper: Make Stealth check, use bonus action to expend maneuver die to make a ranged attack and add maneuver die to damage roll.
Tactical Orders: Use bonus die to direct ally to attack, add maneuver die to their damage roll. This probably needs a sub-maneuver allowing you to give this ability to multiple allies.
Target Enemy: Add maneuver die to attack rolls against a specific type of creature; sub-maneuver also lets you add maneuver die to damage rolls at same time. Maybe I should get rid of this maneuver altogether and simply create a Monster Hunter archetype.
Throw Object: Throw non-weapon objects for d6 damage, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Trick Shot: Ignore non-total cover when making a ranged attack, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Wildstrike: If you hit with all available attacks, expend maneuver die to make additional attack, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Work Together: Choose a target, next ally that makes a melee attack against it adds maneuver die their damage roll.
---
Anyway. Thoughts on which maneuvers to remove or combine?
Since yes, there are far too many. The following maneuvers (with abbreviated descriptions) let you add your maneuver die to your damage roll and we don't need all of them. I'm currently ignoring the maneuvers that are sub-maneuvers of one that doesn't give you that damage bonus (like Read Opponent, which has Assessment as a pre-req). Which of these maneuvers should be kept, which can be removed entirely, and which can turned into a sub-maneuver.
Charge: Take Dash as a bonus action, make an attack and add maneuver die to damage. Has two sub-maneuvers, one of which allows you to inflict your maneuver die on the creatures you trample as you charge past them.
Cleave: Add maneuver die to damage roll and make another attack against a second creature.
Confusing Blow: Add maneuver die to damage roll and either give an ally advantage on its next attack against the creature or cause the creature to have disad on its next attack (until start of your next turn).
Disarming Strike: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Reflexes save or drop an object that it is holding.
Doubleshot: Fire two missiles/pieces of ammo with one attack roll. If you hit, you roll damage die twice and add maneuver die. One of its sub-maneuver, Manyshot, allows you to roll damage dice three times and add maneuver, spreading the dice among either one or two targets.
Doublestrike: Attack with two weapons with one attack roll. If you hit, you roll damage die twice and add maneuver die.
Drive Back: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Fortitude save or you and the target move up to half your speed in a direction of your choice. I think this is redundant with Powerful Shove.
Focus Their Attention: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Will save or it has disad on attacks made against targets other than you. Its sub-maneuver, Draw Attention, lets your ally make an attack and add half the maneuver die to their damage roll.
Frightful Attack: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Will save or become frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
Lunge: Add maneuver die to damage roll and increase your reach by 5 feet.
Make Them Fall: If a creature misses on an opportunity attack against you, you can expend a maneuver die and force it to make a Reflexes save or fall prone, and you can then use your reaction to attack and add maneuver die to damage roll. I think maybe I should get rid of this one, because it's so circumstantial.
Mighty Blow: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Fortitude save or have its speed reduced to 0.
Opportunistic Blow: Add maneuver die to damage of opportunity attack. I just realized that if maneuvers aren't limited to being usable only on your turn, then this isn't necessary--when you make an opportunity attack, you can just use a maneuver.
Powerful Shove: Add maneuver die to damage roll and force target to make a Fortitude save or either be pushed 15 feet away or fall prone. Perhaps Mighty Blow should be a sub-maneuver of this one.
Quickfire: Add maneuver die to damage roll of either a missile weapon or a thrown weapon; can draw ammo/weapon as part of attack.
Ranged Opportunity Attack: Add maneuver die to damage roll of a ranged attack. This could be a sub-maneuver of Quickfire. Or vice versa.
Riposte: When attacked and missed, use reaction to spend maneuver die to attack that creature, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Skillful Feint: Use bonus action to expend maneuver die to gain advantage on attack roll against a creature, add maneuver die to damage roll. Is this redundant with Confusing Blow?
Sniper: Make Stealth check, use bonus action to expend maneuver die to make a ranged attack and add maneuver die to damage roll.
Tactical Orders: Use bonus die to direct ally to attack, add maneuver die to their damage roll. This probably needs a sub-maneuver allowing you to give this ability to multiple allies.
Target Enemy: Add maneuver die to attack rolls against a specific type of creature; sub-maneuver also lets you add maneuver die to damage rolls at same time. Maybe I should get rid of this maneuver altogether and simply create a Monster Hunter archetype.
Throw Object: Throw non-weapon objects for d6 damage, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Trick Shot: Ignore non-total cover when making a ranged attack, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Wildstrike: If you hit with all available attacks, expend maneuver die to make additional attack, add maneuver die to damage roll.
Work Together: Choose a target, next ally that makes a melee attack against it adds maneuver die their damage roll.
---
Anyway. Thoughts on which maneuvers to remove or combine?
Faolyn
(she/her)
OK, it seems like most people want all the martial classes as their own thing, but I gotta say, I honestly like them a lot better as archetypes.
Paladin could easily be a multiclass between a holy warrior and a cleric, if I remove the spells from the holy warrior. A berserker's primary shtick is really just their rage. Everything else--like having a totem or channeling storms or what have you, could easily be its own warrior subclasses or even feats.
Paladin could easily be a multiclass between a holy warrior and a cleric, if I remove the spells from the holy warrior. A berserker's primary shtick is really just their rage. Everything else--like having a totem or channeling storms or what have you, could easily be its own warrior subclasses or even feats.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
I think feats is the way to go with things like giving Holy Warriors access to a spells or do "Storm Barbarian" especially with the upgraded background and feat design space opened up by Strixhaven and Dragonlance - maybe a full Cross Classing feature could be looked at as an alternative to multiclassing.
Holy Warrior gets to take the Divine Initiate background Feat to gain a selection of Cleric spells
Barbarian can take a Totem Power Feat to gain the Holy Warriors smite etc etc
so the Class itself remains Martial but with an ability to customise via feats
CreamCloud0
One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
maybe it's just cause i thought the class/archetype mix-n-match aspect and choose-your-own class building blocks design was much more supported in the initial stages of these threads but seeing 'fighter/barb/paladin should be their own classes' be so high voted is throwing me and kind of feel like a reversal of interests. though i must assume it's the same people voting in these polls and we haven't got a different crowd for different polls
