D&D 5E What is a PC's "CR"?

[Quickleaf]

Yes, I got DEF 9, OFF 7 => CR 8 as well.


We differ on our damage calculations a bit since I don't assmue the spear is already ignited nor is giant's might already active. Perhaps that is an assumption I should be making using that system?

For the build his single downfall really is that he has several things that require his bonus action to activate: the spear, Giant's Might, and Hill Giant rune. The spear, a homebrew item, once active lasts for 10 rounds.

In a major fight, Hill Gaint rune would be first. Coupled with his heavy armor mastery, he is a tank really. Second would be the spear, since the bonus d6 fire damage is on both attacks, and lastly would be Giant's Might but that is tough choice since the extra d6 damage is not much compared to off-hand d8+5. It would take nearly 3 rounds for the Giant's Might to start "paying off" compared to the lost d8+5 to initiate it.

Anyway, so your Round#1 should be without the other weapon damage since that requires the bonus action used for the Hill Giant rune. However, he can actiave the Fire Shackles just after an attack, which is an initial 2d6 fire and possibly more each round. IIRC I did 2d6, 1d6, and 0d6 over the three rounds for it.

Regardless, just about any method for this PC puts his DPR at CR 6, which when adjusted for his higher attack bonus brings his offense up to CR 7, which you got anyway.

Obviously take CR with a heavy grain of salt, and trying to create the CR of a PC with an even heavier grain.

Depending on your purpose in this exercise, i’d recommend calculating defensive CR with the resistance, and then without the resistance to get two separate values of which I would take the average. In my experience, the 5E 2014 DMG overestimates the importance of B/P/S resistances.

Also, when evaluating a monster generally, you create a hypothetical best case three round scenario - it’s not only informs your damage per round calculation, but it also informs how the monsters action economy plays out.

Also, I did not have time but for a full analysis if this was going out for publication, I would look at the numbers for this monster, using the Tome of Foes values that Mike Shea generously put out in open content

 

[ezo]

Your sample PC has better than average stats and better than average armour and a magic weapon and higher than average HP and has DR 3. So I'm not surprised that the CR is higher.

The scores were rolled ( ), the magic weapon is only +1 and the extra d6 fire damae could just as easily be hex or hunter's mark, and DR 3 is a feat... which everyone uses.

I would not be shocked to see it a bit higher, maybe a 6 easily, but not an 8.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Aren't Archmages, archdruids, etc. supposed to be 20th level casters? They only have CR of 12.

 

[ezo]

Aren't Archmages, archdruids, etc. supposed to be 20th level casters? They only have CR of 12.

Yep, which is why the 2/3 of level roughly equals CR would be CR 13 not 12, but close enough.

 

[Quickleaf]

@ezo What was your reason for wanting to give this player character a CR value?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Obviously take CR with a heavy grain of salt, and trying to create the CR of a PC with an even heavier grain.

Indeed. CR is already (IMO) substantially more art than science; this is now appending something that is, itself, also pretty heavily reliant on "art" approaches (eyeballing, intuitive estimation, approximating) rather than "science".

If CR as it already exists is known to be iffy, surely this must be iffy². I'd personally put at least a "+/- 1" disclaimer on there. Doubly so because PCs are designed with the expectation of being on a team...even if 5e doesn't really do anything with that expectation...so a single PC's CR in isolation would necessarily be missing the synergistic effects expected of PCs.

 

[NotAYakk]

XP in 2014 is close to 1/12 * HP * DPR * 2^((AC+ATK)/10)

8th-level Half-Orc Fighter (Rune Knight)
STR 20, DEX 14, CON 20, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 10
AC 19 (adamantine plate armor, Dual Wielder feat +1)
HP 112 (rolled w/ Tough feat)
Attack +9 (+1 weapon) x2; +8 (+0 magic weapon) (Two-Weapon Fighting Style)
Damage 1d6+6+1d6 fire (magic weapon); 1d8+5

1/12 * 112 HP * 35.5 DPR * 2^((19+9)/10) = 2308 XP

Now with special abilities

Now, Action Surge is +13*2/3 DPR (over 3 rounds).
Second Wind is 13.5 HP in exchange for losing 9.5 damage. Not really worth it I think.
Hill Giant is 2x toughness vs BPS; call that +50% HP for losing 9.5 (3 DPR) damage, which is worth it.
Fire Rune is another 10ish DPR
Stone Rune is probably worth 10ish DPR in power.

Giant Might will cost too much DPR probably to use (1d6 per turn for a bonus action, but costs 9.5 offhand attack).
Runic Shield call that +3 AC.

1/12 * 168 * 61.2 * 2^(3.1) = 7346 XP.

So CR 11.

Double checking, CR 11 (top end stats) that the equation holds: 1/12 * 235 * 74 * 2^2.5 = 8198 XP, so right ballpark.

 

[ezo]

@ezo What was your reason for wanting to give this player character a CR value?

Consider it more a thought experiment than anything else. I've noticed that the group I play with handles threats very easily unless I throw x2 or even x3 Deadly encounters at them.

As I wrote in the OP, my general rule of thumb was always CR = 2/3 level or so. However, the four PCs rate CR 8, 8, 8, and 7 (due to lower Defense). Some are more optimized more than others, but due to features as well as numbers they just rate higher than the CR 5 I would expect.

So, I was interested in others stating out the CR for the PC in the OP to see if they also got CR 8 or so.

 

[NotAYakk]

Consider it more a thought experiment than anything else. I've noticed that the group I play with handles threats very easily unless I throw x2 or even x3 Deadly encounters at them.

As I wrote in the OP, my general rule of thumb was always CR = 2/3 level or so. However, the four PCs rate CR 8, 8, 8, and 7 (due to lower Defense). Some are more optimized more than others, but due to features as well as numbers they just rate higher than the CR 5 I would expect.

So, I was interested in others stating out the CR for the PC in the OP to see if they also got CR 8 or so.

5e math was built off of running into on the order of 8 encounters per long rest, each of them normal difficulty, and the PCs being unoptimized and with minimal useful magic items.

If you start with optimized PCs? With magic items that are actually useful? You start needing 8 hard encounters, or even 8 low-deadly encounters, to cause the same amount of attrition.

Many people don't run games that way, which causes problems with the built-in encounter balancing system.

Now, as XP is basically threat volume (a measure of how much damage you'll take to beat this encounter), DMs can easily adapt the challenges by making them harder and calibrate the game to their PCs capabilities. Often this will require the DM either accept lots of TPKs or require that the DM fudge rolls; the baseline encounter balancing accounts for "sometimes the PCs get unlucky, so they need a safety margin"; when you skip the safety margin, it feels more threatening, but then often the DM starts cheating in the players' favour.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

A monster is supposed to be an appropriate challenge for 3-5 PCs with an average level equal to its CR, right? So, assuming the system is working as intended (not a small assumption, to be fair), shouldn’t a PC be the equivalent of about 1/4 its level CR…?

No, because that would make the battle an even match: ie, the monsters are just as likely to win as the PCs.