D&D 5E What is a PC's "CR"?

[Li Shenron]

The original explanation of CR in 2014 DMG was of an indication of warning when higher than PC level, that the monster could cause immediate or substantial danger. Explicit examples referred to dealing maximum damage in a single turn enough to kill a supposedly full-health PC, or having immunities that could not normally be bypassed by spells and abilities at the PC level.

These suggest to me that doing calculations and extrapolation of  averages is off-target when talking about CR.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A monster is supposed to be an appropriate challenge for 3-5 PCs with an average level equal to its CR, right? So, assuming the system is working as intended (not a small assumption, to be fair), shouldn’t a PC be the equivalent of about 1/4 its level CR…?

No. They don't add like this.

Correction: up to level 2 that actually works exactly like that. Up to level 4 it is close to that.

In 3e there was a logarithmic/exponential scale. One ceature of CR X + 2 is equal to 2 creatures of CR X.

In 5e there is no such stric formula. But the XP can be used to determine the exact numbers.

Edit: between level 4 and 20, it seems to be that one creature of CR 2*X equals about 4 creatures of CR X

So it is a squareroot/quadratic scale.

Above CR 20 XP grows faster.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

A monster is supposed to be an appropriate challenge for 3-5 PCs with an average level equal to its CR, right? So, assuming the system is working as intended (not a small assumption, to be fair), shouldn’t a PC be the equivalent of about 1/4 its level CR…?

An "appropriate challenge" in D&D is not a fair fight, but a fun fight the PCs win while expending some of their daily resources.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

An "appropriate challenge" in D&D is not a fair fight, but a fun fight the PCs win while expending some of their daily resources.

That's a better way to explain it - even if CR were balanced to party level (which is highly questionable), the goal is for a balanced fight is for the PCs to win but to have a chance of taking heavy damage or even incurring a death or two. So by definition the PCs are going to be more powerful than 1/4 of the CR rating they're "challenged" by.

 

[Upper_Krust]

In my experience its baseline CR = 2/3rds level.

However, PCs (especially at higher level) have the capacity to go "Nova" for a round or two wherein their CR is probably equal to their Level.

So 2/3rds level as a baseline, but the PCs still have the 'safety net' of going nova to skew the CR.

Taking the nova thing into consideration and maybe 3/4ths or 4/5ths is more accurate for an overall CR.

One other thing to consider is that PC Proficiency Bonus could be +2 higher than a monster with a CR = 2/3rds their level.

 

[ezo]

For whatever it's worth, here's how I ran the monster maths from 2014 DMG with your half-orc rune knight:

TOTAL CR = (9 + 7) / 2 = 8

DEFENSIVE CR 9

effective hp = 112 + 14 treating Relentless Endurance as DMG treats Undead Fortitude (for expected CR 5 to 10) x 1.5 Hill Rune resistances to b/p/s Hill Rune (for expected CR 5 to 10) = 189

AC 19

Yes, I got DEF 9, OFF 7 => CR 8 as well.

OFFENSIVE CR 7

DPR = (43+39.5+39.5)/3 = 40.5

• Round#1 = Spear 2 x (3.5+6+3.5) + 7 fire rune + Other Weapon (4.5+5) + extra critical damage Savage Attacks (3 x (0.05 x 3.5) + 0 bonus action activate Hill Rune = 43
• Round#2 = Spear 2 x (3.5+6+3.5) + Other Weapon (4.5+5) + giant’s might 3.5 + extra critical damage Savage Attacks (3 x (0.05 x 3.5) = 39.5
• Round#3 = Spear 2 x (3.5+6+3.5) + Other Weapon (4.5+5) + giant’s might 3.5+ extra critical damage Savage Attacks (3 x (0.05 x 3.5) = 39.5

Attack +9

We differ on our damage calculations a bit since I don't assmue the spear is already ignited nor is giant's might already active. Perhaps that is an assumption I should be making using that system?

For the build his single downfall really is that he has several things that require his bonus action to activate: the spear, Giant's Might, and Hill Giant rune. The spear, a homebrew item, once active lasts for 10 rounds.

In a major fight, Hill Gaint rune would be first. Coupled with his heavy armor mastery, he is a tank really. Second would be the spear, since the bonus d6 fire damage is on both attacks, and lastly would be Giant's Might but that is tough choice since the extra d6 damage is not much compared to off-hand d8+5. It would take nearly 3 rounds for the Giant's Might to start "paying off" compared to the lost d8+5 to initiate it.

Anyway, so your Round#1 should be without the other weapon damage since that requires the bonus action used for the Hill Giant rune. However, he can actiave the Fire Shackles just after an attack, which is an initial 2d6 fire and possibly more each round. IIRC I did 2d6, 1d6, and 0d6 over the three rounds for it.

Regardless, just about any method for this PC puts his DPR at CR 6, which when adjusted for his higher attack bonus brings his offense up to CR 7, which you got anyway.

 

[Charlaquin]

I would not assume that a monster of X Challenge Rating is a challenge for 4 PCs of Level X. Monsters don't get enough HP to make this be close to true

That is however what the book says it does.

For example, CR guidance assumes that Monster HP scales by +15 per Challenge Rating (up to CR20, then scales faster). If a group of 4 PCs level up, they gain a hell of a lot more than 5 DPR combined (which would keep things even assuming a 3 round fight). And then on top of that discrepancy, almost all monsters (pre-2024 MM, at least) have much lower HP than the 2014 DMG guidelines say they should, so it's even more non-linear

Well, the 2014 DMG guidelines are incorrect according to the devs.

 

[ezo]

Yep. According to the 2014 DMG, for the most part a CR of equal level to a 4-PC party would be a hard encounter (1st, 5th, 6th, 7th levels would be moderate).

 

[the Jester]

Whenever it has come up in my game (e.g. when I need to award xp for defeating a pc-style foe), I always used the monster creation guides to evaluate pcs types on an individual basis. I don't think you can really have a good rule of thumb if not all pcs are optimized for combat. The difference between a wizard with offensive spells and one who focuses on divination magic is pretty extreme.

 

[Quartz]

In my current game, for example, the 8th-level PCs would be on par with CR 5 creatures.

Your sample PC has better than average stats and better than average armour and a magic weapon and higher than average HP and has DR 3. So I'm not surprised that the CR is higher.