Would I be missing the point if I gave the Adept class higher spell levels?

[Noumenon]

Or or if you're worried about giving out too much loot, just give low level casters the spells you want them to use and don't worry about how they got them.

I was worried about too much loot. A wand for a second level spell is 4500 gp, a ninth level treasure. I'd have to go with scrolls. The reason I haven't is I feared the caster level check rules, and I didn't want to encourage my PCs to go out and buy high level spell scrolls to solve everything. (In this case I'd have to give out two or three wands, because I am planning on one or two of the boats getting sunk by the shipboard catapult or otherwise blowed up.)

I know where you're coming from when you say "just give him the spell." I'd have few qualms with the idea of just homebrewing a monster that went along on the boat and chewed through wood, for example.

I just don't want to do either of those things yet because I'm not just trying to build fun encounters, I'm trying to have fun myself, and what's fun for me right now is exploring and mastering the rules. I like building all the druids as though I were creating PCs whose job was to be ocean raiders, and picking wild shape and stuff like that is fun because I've never gotten to actually play a druid myself. I like the optimization problem of "you want to make a fun running battle with five boats full of goblins against a caravel, but you only get to use the spells you can afford and still have an EL of 6." But then there's some rules I don't like optimizing within because they don't make sense to me, like these lame Adepts.

If you give them the same spells as a full caster but fewer of them they will be as effective and dominating in combat as a full caster for the first couple of rounds. It would only be in extended fights when they run out of spells that they would be weaker.

You're probably right... a lot of fights I'd hardly care if the creature was a first level with 4 HP as long as I got access to that one Haste or Fog Cloud to make the encounter special.

You know, it's not really the same as the fifteen-minute adventuring day when an NPC blows all his spells, two reasons. One, the next couple encounters probably won't have spell users at all, so you get the same total magic. Two, a party is four times as strong as an NPC. So when a wizard blows his spells, it becomes a total wipeout. When an NPC blows his spells, it just makes the encounter actually worth playing out.

 

[Voadam]

A quick NPC druid variant.

Give him full spellcasting. Take away all other druid powers (wildshape, animal companion, spontaneous summons, etc.). Give him d4 HD, 1/2 BAB and only strong will saves.

This gives a strong spellcaster who is not as strong as a PC version.

 

[Noumenon]

It seems like the problem is this: high level spells are too good to give them out at low CR even if you only get one. So maybe the answer is to do the opposite of what Mustrum suggested before: Give adepts the high level spells, but give them lousy save DCs and low caster levels. Now they'll fire off lightning bolts, but the PCs will mostly live (and feel good about it); they'll have access to haste, but not for the whole clan; they can wood shape, but not enough to flood the whole ship. They can summon that bad ass Nature's Ally III, but it only stays for two rounds... I think that would really meet my coolness needs without overwhelming the party.

The point of NPC classes is to be weaker and represent non superheroic NPCs.

I can represent a weaker, nonsuperheroic cleric by giving him three fewer levels of cleric than the party has, or by making him an adept the same level as the party. If I compare the two solutions, it looks like the purpose of adepts is to make weak NPCs who have more hit points and a higher CR than simply deleveled PC classes. And of course to make first-level wizards with CR 1/2. It's weird.

 

[Voadam]

Hmm, you've got a little bit of tension here.

You want to max out spell casting for a certain EL, but minimize loot and avoid TPKs.

Spell casting is tied to levels, creature abilities, and items under RAW. Maxing out level means associated loot for high levels and using associated powerful magic.

For specific spells you could get certain low CR monsters with the appropriate SLA or ability, such as a tiefling for a darkness spell or a rust monster instead of a druid with rusting grasp spell.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I just don't want to do either of those things yet because I'm not just trying to build fun encounters, I'm trying to have fun myself, and what's fun for me right now is exploring and mastering the rules. I like building all the druids as though I were creating PCs whose job was to be ocean raiders, and picking wild shape and stuff like that is fun because I've never gotten to actually play a druid myself. I like the optimization problem of "you want to make a fun running battle with five boats full of goblins against a caravel, but you only get to use the spells you can afford and still have an EL of 6." But then there's some rules I don't like optimizing within because they don't make sense to me, like these lame Adepts.

Hehe, I have been there too. Just make sure you notice when it stops being fun and more feels like work (a risk especially at higher levels). At that point, forget the system, but keep the mastery. You might have learned what a CR x creature should be able to take or do, and so improvise your monsters accordingly.

I personally found inspiration for that in Iron Heroes and its Villain Classes.

 

[rkwoodard]

why not go sorcerer

Why not go Sorcerer and then you can pick the exact spell list. Then, just don't pick anything too powerfully offensive.

For example the Goblin pirate will have spells that make day to day ship life easier, and spells that help the ship manuver and get away, but not anything that would sink an oncoming ship.

I play pretty loose, so I wound not hesitate to add devine spells and just call them Arcane.



RK

 

[Loonook]

Rituals. Let the little bugger have an obvious 'target' for how he casts his spells, and allow the party to have an ability to disrupt it. Make the spell take longer to cast... plenty of other ways.

Creepy witch calling shadows from the depths of a darkwater pond she's standing over? The party can disrupt it (making an attack against the pool or the witch). The witch may have a number of rituals tied to the pool that she can use, or she may be able to use her familiar as a channel for more powerful spells (kill that cat that is attacking and disrupting the caster? Get rid of her spells).

Show signs... ehh, if anyone needs further explanations or ideas I'll post more .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[MichaelK]

I don't use Adepts.

The non-super casters in my campaign are usually spellcasters with a low casting attribute. This works well because it means they'll often know one or two metamagics and apply it to fill up their higher level slots (a low level spell raised through metamagics doesn't count to the attribute limit for spellcasting). This gives them a particular feel or theme that applies to the majority of their magic, which works great thematically as well.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm never been a fan of the npc classes myself. I just use pc classes for all my npcs and it works just fine to me.

 

[Noumenon]

Give adepts the high level spells, but give them lousy save DCs and low caster levels.

Looking at this another way, this is like giving them the feat

Weaken Spell

Prepare a spell in a slot one lower than its normal level. The caster level and save DC for that spell are 2/3 normal.

That seems like it would be broken. Would it be possible to balance that feat?