Would someone help me understand what Gelstalt is?

Edena_of_Neith

First Post
I'm hearing things about Gelstalt. After hearing them, I was quite surprised.
It seems you can be multiclassed, but only pay for one class in experience points?
In effect, you can gain 15,000 experience points and be a 6th level mage and a 6th level fighter? Is that the right of it?

Can someone explain the concept and the background for me? I have never read Arcana Unearthed.

Because it seems like you can create X-characters with Gelstalt. Remember Star Fleet Battles and it's X-ships? Now, you can create X-characters. Or, so it seems.

Anyone?
 

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Edena_of_Neith said:
I'm hearing things about Gelstalt. After hearing them, I was quite surprised.
It seems you can be multiclassed, but only pay for one class in experience points?
In effect, you can gain 15,000 experience points and be a 6th level mage and a 6th level fighter? Is that the right of it?

Can someone explain the concept and the background for me? I have never read Arcana Unearthed.

Because it seems like you can create X-characters with Gelstalt. Remember Star Fleet Battles and it's X-ships? Now, you can create X-characters. Or, so it seems.

Anyone?
You don't actually get double the hit dice--you just take the best from each class for each save category, attack bonus, skill points, and HP, plus pool up all the class skills. Then you add all the specials on both class charts, including spellcasting.

Also, if you're interested in gestalt stuff, I've created a bunch of new gestalt classes on my Encyclopaedia Altanica thread in the House Rules forum that gives the combos names and switches out some of the abilities for new ones to make interesting new classes, and I've used these classes to good effect (in opinion at least) in my PbP games.
 

It's important to remember, as well, that the gestalt concept is presented specifically for high-powered or unusual campaigns. It's most assuredly not meant to be combined with normal characters; as written, the idea is that everyone in a party is a gestalt character, or nobody is.

Some folks have taken a stab at finding a level adjustment for gestalt, so that those who are so inclined can indeed combine them with normal PCs. So far, though, I've yet to see one that I feel really fits, since a gestalt character will, by definition, grow farther and farther apart from a normal character, in terms of power, as he gains levels.
 

Mouseferatu said:
It's important to remember, as well, that the gestalt concept is presented specifically for high-powered or unusual campaigns. It's most assuredly not meant to be combined with normal characters; as written, the idea is that everyone in a party is a gestalt character, or nobody is.

Some folks have taken a stab at finding a level adjustment for gestalt, so that those who are so inclined can indeed combine them with normal PCs. So far, though, I've yet to see one that I feel really fits, since a gestalt character will, by definition, grow farther and farther apart from a normal character, in terms of power, as he gains levels.
Definitely good advice--in fact, one of the most interesting and helpful uses for gestalt characters seems to be with GMs who only have a few players on hand, 2 or 3 instead of 4 to 8, as using gestalt rules allows the players to cover more of the bases and boosts them up a bit to help overcome their challenges.
 


Thank you all for the help. My sincere appreciation.

Consider something, though ...

Let's say that characters were like Star Fleet Battle ships.
In Star Fleet Battles, the Federation and Klingons and Kzinti and Hydrans and all the others concentrated on efficiency. Efficiency was the key, because the shipyards could only produce so many ships, and in wartime they had to get the best out of each and every ship they produced (ala the General War, Y169 - Y182.)
So, the Klingon D7 have 4 Disruptors, 3 forward Phaser-IIs, and 4 wing Phaser-IIs. The Klingons did not, as a rule, attempt to upgrade the Phasers to Phaser-Is (the heavier Federation type Phasers) because of the cost. They did not attempt to upgrade the disruptors to plasma torpedoes, for the good reason it would have required they rebuild much of the ship to withstand the shock of firing plasma torpedoes, and the power systems would have had to be completely rearranged. It would have been cost prohibitive.
Only a few, experimental ships had Phaser-Is, much less plasma torpedoes.
To overcome their defective weaponry, the Klingons built bigger and bigger ships, with more and more Phaser-IIs and Disruptors, until they created the Battleship known as the B10. This was the efficient thing to do: the expedient thing to do.

Now, consider a D&D character. In the 3.5 rules, he can gain a certain number of skills, Feats, hit points, improvements to BAB and saves, and special skills, by the time he reaches 10th level.
Depending on the class, he may gain different types of skills and feats, and different kinds of special abilities, but there are ONLY SO MANY THINGS he can gain by 10th level.

Let's say that the various D&D races, have created classes (which are, indeed, Prestige Classes) to allow for maximum gain of skills, feats, hit points, improvements to BAB and saves, and special skills, by the time their characters gain 10th level.
In other words, doing In Character what Min/Maxing players do out of character.
Why would they do this?
Because they are at war with the other races, other nations, and because they feel like it in general!
These classes, then, would focus on efficiency, on expediency, on maximum gain per level, on compromises that allowed the most gain with the least loss (ala the Eldritch Knight, for example.)
Thus, we have Elven Bladesingers, Dwarven Battleragers, and a host of other specialist classes (if I had all the 3.5 books in front of me, I'm sure I could go on for pages concerning these classes, but I don't.)

-

Gelstalt cuts the feet out from under this concept, if what I am correctly interpreting what I am reading.
This is because the compromises in question are no longer needed. The character's money (experience points) buys far more goods and services.

But that does not mean the warring races would settle with that. They wouldn't.
Armed with gelstalt, they would focus on expediency and efficiency once again, only this time from a prospective of each point buys 2 points of gain.
Thus, all the Prestige Classes and multiclass options would be different. And if all of those are different, everyone's expectation of what's out there changes, and the whole campaign world changes.

In Star Fleet Battles, they called this process ... well, it came about with the development of X-ships. Armed with superior technology, these ships got the Klingons and others far more ship for the money.
Klingon X-ships had Phaser-Is that could do all sorts of neat and unusual things, and Disruptors that could aim far more accurately, and there was far more power to overload the Disruptors with, and more power to electronic warfare to ensure hits, and bigger shields to take enemy photon torpedo hits, and lightning fast drones with huge warheads, and so on.
After that, no Klingon shipyard ever again built a D7. They build D7Xs. Why would they build an antiquated, out of date ship, which could not possibly win against a Federation Heavy Cruiser-X?

Well, why would anyone go with the standard classes and Prestige Classes, in a world of Gelstalt?
Why, when they could create Gelstalt Prestige Classes instead?

So yes, you create an Alternate Reality with Gelstalt, I hypothesize.
I guess you could introduce Gelstalt into the standard campaign, but it will mark the beginning of a massive alteration in the campaign world, just as X-ships marked an end to all the old ships in Star Fleet Battles that had once been used.

Just commenting.

Edena_of_Neith
 

Well, why would anyone go with the standard classes and Prestige Classes, in a world of Gelstalt?
Why, when they could create Gelstalt Prestige Classes instead?

Uh, they wouldn't. That's why, as was pointed out, they're not intended to appear in the same campaigns as normal characters.
 

BTW, Rystil's gestalt classes are way cool and well done! (Destiny's Tears Campaign)
 

And it's Gestalt (derived from the german word) not Gelstalt. :p

Gestalt is not meant to coexist with standard classes. Either you have Gestalt or not. It's a variant game concept, not an addition to the regular class choices. At least for the PCs, that is, it's just too complex to have all the NPCs under Gestalt rules as well, therefore it's easier to use LA bonuses (ranging from +0 to +2 depending on level) to cover the difference.

Bye
Thanee
 

I'm sure they are. Can you give me the link to Destiny's Tears?

I could see the Forgotten Realms slowly becoming a Gestalt Campaign World.
It would take time (hundreds of years at the least) and it would involve countless wars and massive upheavals of civilization, but it could happen.
Much like the IR (industrial revolution threads) it would represent a power escalation, an arms race, between the various races, as each in turn found 'the Secret' of Gestalt power (by quests, finding artifacts, going to other planes for research, finding some sort of lost magic from the Arcane Age, and so on.)

Certainly, Gestalt characters in a normal setting would be kicking everyone's butt.
But there would come a point where the Powers That Be took notice of this.
Everyone, their brother, and their father the lich would want the secret, and they would hunt the PCs like dogs, take them prisoner, and try to torture the secret of Gestalt out of them. When that didn't work, evil wizards and clerics would use the PCs for 'research' and 'experimentation' purposes to find the secrets of Gestalt.

You know, though, Gestalt would enable your character to have more of those delicious feats.
And, after all, there are 2,000 official feats, and thousands more in d20. With gestalt, you'd have a better crack at getting 'the good stuff' as it were.
Of course, the gestalt monsters would also have 'the good stuff' so those former wimpy 2E orcs would now be the Armaggedon Orcs from Unholy Hell (that is, they'd eat 1E and 2E drow for dinner and the illithid for dessert.)
 
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