Would someone help me understand what Gelstalt is?

[Thanee]

Certainly, Gestalt characters in a normal setting would be kicking everyone's butt.

They are better, of course, but not so much as one might think.

They still have only their level's worth of hit points (though maybe a better hit die than usual), for example.

Gestalt characters tend to be more capable in breadth, covering more different fields of expertise, but they are no (or not notably) stronger in their individual abilities than standard characters, they just have more of them.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm guessing - just guessing here - that Gestalt makes the game far more entertaining, more fun, for play at low levels (1st through 5th). The players have more choices, more rules to use, more food for thought. Their characters can, simply put, do more.
Considering that a great majority of the games played involve 5th level or less, that really means something, if true.

Am I right?
What does WOTC think?
What do you think? Many of you are using the Gestalt rules, apparently.

As for me, I'm just trying to figure out how a person can cram 20 years of weapons practice and 20 years of magical studies into a mere actual 20 years (but then again, I grew up in the 1st and 2nd edition worlds ...)
I saw the barbarian/mage variant. THAT one really brought a laugh (remember how the Unearthed Arcana 1st edition barbarians thought of wizards? ) But that would be one tough character (the barbarian/witches of Rashemen ...)

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Dark Jezter]

Would someone help me understand what Gestalt is?

It's salt that you give to your guests.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I said it on another messageboard, and I'll say it here: I think a revolt is occurring, against WOTC.

Imagine that I went back to 1990, and proposed a Gestalt character to the groups of the time:

My proposed new class has all of the abilities of the mage, plus all of the abilities of the fighter, the hit points of the mage, the best saving throws of each class, and no disadvantages whatsoever to offset the gain. (Not to mention the Feats of both classes, plus the standard Feats for level, plus gaining points in your stats, plus skills - in this case, the best of both class worlds for skills.)

Everyone in the room would stop talking. There would be total silence. There would. The DM would ask: what's the punchline of the joke?

And I would say: no punchline, this is my character. Furthermore, it's everyone's character. You can be a bard/barbarian, mage/barbarian, cleric/ranger, etc. etc.

I would have been laughed out of the room. Literally. A lot of people would be asking what I was smoking, too.
Not even the most Monty-Haulish DMs I ever played under would have allowed it. Not even *I* would have allowed it. And many of you know how much of a Monty-Hall player I am!

-

So along comes D&D 3.5.
Now, I'm still reading the Player's Handbook, but everyone keeps telling me (and complaining to me) about how the power levels are nerfed in 3.5. Magic is nerfed, spells are nerfed, magic feats are nerfed, etc., etc., etc.
People tell me how inconceivably powerful those old 2nd Edition spells were, compared to the spells of 3.5, and how utterly broken they were. Such things, they say, would NEVER be allowed in 3.5!!

So what happens? Along comes Arcana Unearthed, and a new idea is proposed that not even the most Monty-Hallish DM in 2nd Edition would ever have allowed ... and people are going for it. People like it. I've been reading. People want Gestalt.
Apparently, it increases the fun at levels 1 through 5. I could see how, considering how many more options it allows the players.
So players are saying interesting things. Over on Nothingland, they are saying things I can't repeat here, but it amounts to: To heck with Balance, if it interferes with the fun. To heck with all the rules, Gestalt is fun. Hey, we're having fun, so does it matter?

Well, obviously the game is about fun. (If it's not about fun, Houston we have a problem.)
But in this case, a set of rules are being used that would have GOTTEN ME LAUGHED OUT OF THE ROOM back in 1990, had I proposed them back then, and the game was more high powered back then.

It sounds like a revolt.
If it was just tweaking of the rules, to allow higher powered characters, I wouldn't say that. If someone was running around with 10 Prismatic Swords on him, I still wouldn't say that.
But when a set of rules like Gestalt becomes popular - a set of rules unthinkable even in the highest powered days of 2nd edition - that sounds more like a revolt.
And I'm reading posts from players, and they like the Gestalt rules. They're using them, they like them, and to heck with the game and WOTC if it upsets the standard system!

It's a revolt!

Just my two cents. Everyone can shoot me down now ...

Edena_of_Neith

 

[blargney the second]

I'm not sure what the kefuffle is about. D&D is fun, with or without gestalt. I'll still happily play both.

-blarg

EDIT: I think I found the problem. The gestalt rules were published in a book by Wizards of the Coast called Unearthed Arcana. It contained variant rules for D&D.

Arcana Unearthed is an alternate version of D&D with radically different classes, races, spellcasting. It is also set in a totally different campaign world. it was published by Malhavoc Press (Monte Cook) around the same time as Unearthed Arcana.

Hope this clears things up.

EDIT 2: Arcana Unearthed vs Unearthed Arcana

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am informed in Rules (see the Rules forum) that I CAN have my 12th level gestalt character who is a 4th level barbarian/bard / 4th level wizard/sorcerer / 4th level cleric/monk.

(sits at the keyboard stunned, somewhere beyond amazement)

 

[Michael Silverbane]

EoN... You seem to be missing... two things...

First, the gestalt rules are essentially the same as the multiclassing rules of the 1st and 2nd editions... You remember the fighter/cleric/mage? Well, take out one of those classes, and you've got a gestalt character. Granted, with multiclassing you had to split up your experience, which essentially put you one level behind everyone who was not multiclassing. In this rules variant, they are saying that either it is appropriate for everyone to be multiclassed in this way, or for noone to be multiclassed in this way.

Second, the rules variant is particularly useful for when you have fewer players than normal. It has no bearing on what level you are. If you are playing with the gestalt rules variant, you do so for the entire spectrum of levels, not for just the first few.

Also... yeah, what he said (in reference to blargney's UA vs. AU comment).

Later
silver

 

[DanMcS]

I am informed in Rules (see the Rules forum) that I CAN have my 12th level gestalt character who is a 4th level barbarian/bard / 4th level wizard/sorcerer / 4th level cleric/monk.

(sits at the keyboard stunned, somewhere beyond amazement)

Aren't you the guy that had a 110th level wizard of some sort? I wouldn't think oddly-built characters using variant rules would be a concept you'd find all that ruffling.

Gestalt characters are a campaign option. Like, if you want to run a Shaolin Soccer kinda game, you have everyone gestalt with a monk. Or if you only have a couple of players, you let them take gestalt class options to give them a bit more versatility. It's really not all that mind-blowing.

 

[SidusLupus]

Gestalt makes the game more epic, without epic.

I don't see what you're hung up about. If you don't like it don't use it, it is a variant after all.

We use gestalt because we had for over two years a group of two players and needed something extra so that they can survive.

I have 3 players now and they're gestalt and everything's fine.

Sure they have all those abilities, but guess what?

You're limited by the actions you can take, and the hps you have. That's the huge equalizer.

And, like everyone else said: either everyone is gestalt, or no one is.

I think maybe you should try playing with them so that you understand the concept better.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Will do, but I'll say this:

Edena, my cleric PC, made 21st level legitimately (level by painful level. It is what happened after that, which is questionable to others.)
With the gestalt rules, this human character - Edena - would have gained 21 free levels in another class of his choice. So, by the standard 3rd Edition rules, he'd be a 42nd level character.
He'd probably have become a 21st level cleric/mage.

No big deal, nothing to get worked up about, getting 21 levels for free. Nah, nothing important about that!

But nevermind me. I get a new surprise everytime I open a new 3.5 book.
Live, learn, and adapt, are the bywords here.

I have always said that if it was fun, more power to it. It appears gestalt is fun for a lot of players, and is apparently gaining in popularity, just based on what I've read tonight. So I say, more power to it!