William Ronald
Explorer
Thanks, wingsandsword. I will download a copy for future reference.
Would someone help me understand what Gelstalt is?
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Kuld
Explorer
Just as Michael Silverbane had mentioned earlier, I really don’t see any difference between Gestalt characters and multi-classed characters in earlier editions. Well, maybe the fact that you had to split your EXP between classes. We also can’t forget about racial level restrictions either.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
My apologies. Will change it immediately.
EDIT: (looks upset) I can't find my own writing. Moderators, could you delete it if you see it?
EDIT: (looks upset) I can't find my own writing. Moderators, could you delete it if you see it?
Last edited:
Zappo
Explorer
Gestalt characters are obviously much more powerful than regular characters of the same level. However, they have several major weaknesses when compared with either two regular characters of the same level, or with a regular character of twice their level.
Against two 10th level regular characters, a 10th level gestalt loses easily. They have two actions per round, he has one.
Against a 20th level regular character, a 10th level gestalt loses just as easily. The 20th level regular has less abilities in number, but those he has are far, far more powerful: if he's a spellcaster, he has 9th level spells and CL 20, and if he's a fighter, he has +20 BAB, much more hit points, and the high-end feats.
Personally, if I wanted to make a high-powered campaign, I'd just tell everyone to start at 4th level instead of 1st (the same thing I say about playing with 32 point buy instead of 25).
But I think the gestalt rules could make for an interesting themed campaign - for example, a thieves guild campaign where everyone is a gestalt rogue. It'd be pretty cool.
Against two 10th level regular characters, a 10th level gestalt loses easily. They have two actions per round, he has one.
Against a 20th level regular character, a 10th level gestalt loses just as easily. The 20th level regular has less abilities in number, but those he has are far, far more powerful: if he's a spellcaster, he has 9th level spells and CL 20, and if he's a fighter, he has +20 BAB, much more hit points, and the high-end feats.
Personally, if I wanted to make a high-powered campaign, I'd just tell everyone to start at 4th level instead of 1st (the same thing I say about playing with 32 point buy instead of 25).
But I think the gestalt rules could make for an interesting themed campaign - for example, a thieves guild campaign where everyone is a gestalt rogue. It'd be pretty cool.
BSF
Explorer
Themed campaigns are what piques my interest for Gestalt.
The campaign is all about righteous wrath and smiting the wicked: Gestalt with Paladin
The campaign is all about a sudden wild surge of arcane magic in the world and people are beginning to manifest without training: Gestalt with Sorceror.
The campaign has a metatheme dealing with the power of the mind: Gestalt with Psion - Or with Psychic if you are using GR's Psychic's Handbook.
The campaign is about a barbarian tribe making it's way into civilized territories: Gestalt with Barbarian.
You get the idea!
Anyway, Edena the concept of Gestalt looks powerful on the surface, but it really isn't. It is more versatile and possibly more powerful, but not on the scale you seem to be thinking. Remember that you only get the better BAB, you only get the better saves, you only get the better # of skills. The only real stacking you get is with spellcasting and class features. It isn't even a straight out equation for twice as many options or being twice as tough.
A strong Gestalt combination will try to shore up weaknesses. As an example, you might try to be sure you end up with three good saves, decent skills, and a strong BAB. If you were going to focus on playing a gestalt wizard, you might think about pairing up with one of the fighting classes. But Paladin and Fighter are actually less appealing because both classes favor heavy armor, which you don't wear as an arcane spellcaster. The Barbarian is a nice option, it shores up your fort save, gets you great HD and is a strong BAB option. It also has more skill points than a wizard. On the other hand, the primary class ability of Raging cannot be coupled with your spellcasting. The Ranger, on the other hand, will shore up your Fort & Ref saves. The HD aren't as strong, but you have even more skill points. An Animal Companion could give you a personal bodyguard to help keep people from harassing your spellcasting. The eventual Evasion is pretty tasty as well. As well, you get a modicum of low level divine spells. The improved BAB makes your ray spells, and other ranged touch attacks, very successful.
A weaker Gestalt Build doesn't shore up weaknesses, it just layers on abilities. An example would a Gestalt BarbarianFighter. In this case, maybe you wanted to play a Barbarian and wanted the bonus fighter feats. There is some strength there, but you still suffer from poor will saves.
Gestalt characters are interesting because they do give you more options. But they don't necessarily give you a great deal more power. As has been mentioned before, no matter what you still only get one action/round.
The campaign is all about righteous wrath and smiting the wicked: Gestalt with Paladin
The campaign is all about a sudden wild surge of arcane magic in the world and people are beginning to manifest without training: Gestalt with Sorceror.
The campaign has a metatheme dealing with the power of the mind: Gestalt with Psion - Or with Psychic if you are using GR's Psychic's Handbook.
The campaign is about a barbarian tribe making it's way into civilized territories: Gestalt with Barbarian.
You get the idea!
Anyway, Edena the concept of Gestalt looks powerful on the surface, but it really isn't. It is more versatile and possibly more powerful, but not on the scale you seem to be thinking. Remember that you only get the better BAB, you only get the better saves, you only get the better # of skills. The only real stacking you get is with spellcasting and class features. It isn't even a straight out equation for twice as many options or being twice as tough.
A strong Gestalt combination will try to shore up weaknesses. As an example, you might try to be sure you end up with three good saves, decent skills, and a strong BAB. If you were going to focus on playing a gestalt wizard, you might think about pairing up with one of the fighting classes. But Paladin and Fighter are actually less appealing because both classes favor heavy armor, which you don't wear as an arcane spellcaster. The Barbarian is a nice option, it shores up your fort save, gets you great HD and is a strong BAB option. It also has more skill points than a wizard. On the other hand, the primary class ability of Raging cannot be coupled with your spellcasting. The Ranger, on the other hand, will shore up your Fort & Ref saves. The HD aren't as strong, but you have even more skill points. An Animal Companion could give you a personal bodyguard to help keep people from harassing your spellcasting. The eventual Evasion is pretty tasty as well. As well, you get a modicum of low level divine spells. The improved BAB makes your ray spells, and other ranged touch attacks, very successful.
A weaker Gestalt Build doesn't shore up weaknesses, it just layers on abilities. An example would a Gestalt BarbarianFighter. In this case, maybe you wanted to play a Barbarian and wanted the bonus fighter feats. There is some strength there, but you still suffer from poor will saves.
Gestalt characters are interesting because they do give you more options. But they don't necessarily give you a great deal more power. As has been mentioned before, no matter what you still only get one action/round.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
Edena_of_Neith said:
I would think of it as a revolt, but a revolt against the straitjacketed ideas people had about balance in RPG's back in 1980 or 1990. People talk a lot about how 'balance is king' in 3.X as if it wasn't like that before. Nonsense. It was all about balance back in 1985 as well. The difference is that in 3.x, balance is actually possible to a greater degree than before.
You've got the right idea about Gestalt characters being a thing for new characters in a new campaign. Most of the options in Unearthed Arcana are never meant to be used in a normal campaign. Many are never meant to be used together. They are strong spices to be used sparingly if at all, and only 'to taste'. If it's not to your groups taste to use such things, then you don't. Some people will love the increased options, some will not. You don't use every spice in the cabinet just because you have it.You can try but don't be surprised if the results are less than you expected and perhaps put a couple people in the hospital.
The thing to remember is that not every option is always available. Following that rule, you can use some optional rules to push the game in a totally different direction and yet still have some continuity with other D&D games and with other d20 things.
Good to hear you're back in the game.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Thanks for the warm welcome back! 
I have resisted the lure to create a gestalt character. I have created several standard characters: Claire, Narrin, and Gwyndilyn.
I have resisted the lure to create a gestalt character. I have created several standard characters: Claire, Narrin, and Gwyndilyn.
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