Would this be unbalancing?

[Capellan]

See, I wouldn't have a problem with a Monk taking this as class levels 3-7, mainly because the effects are cool, but not unlike just using a spiked chain.

Prestige classes should not be available at 3rd level, IMO. It's not very prestigious

While the core Monk's abilities are cool, there is nothing there that even remotely compares with the ability to deflect 10 (!) arrows per round, nor to compete with a 10' reach.

Yes, a spiked chain also gives reach - but it requires the monk to use a feat for proficiency, makes them unable to deflect arrows (since it is a large weapon) and only uses the normal - not Unarmed - BAB.

Couple that with the fact that - as written - the Mnk2/OLH5 is able to throw 6 shuriken per round doing 1d6 damage each, and that none of their abilities (except their +1 secondary unarmed attack) are negated by armour, and you've got someone who is just begging for a level of Fighter to min/max the character to death.

Don't get me wrong: I think you've got a very interesting class idea here. I just think the balance is a bit off. The entry requirements need to be more stringent (a 3rd level Human Expert could qualify!) and the Wide Palm needs to be toned down (I'd say 4 missiles should be the absolute maximum allowed). Projected Blade also needs to be made less lethal - at the moment the character will act like a buzzsaw.

I'd probably expand it to a 10 level class, too, and make some of the abilities stack with those of the Monk.

In fact, I'll probably work up an alternative this weekend and post it here - give you a chance to tell me what I've done wrong!

 

[Nifft]

One thing I didn't get a chance to work in was the use of Expertise. I'd planned on allowing OLH Monks to use Expertise to add to thier Reflex saves, and/or work as a Deflection Bonus to AC instead of an Insight Bonus. (Good points of Deflection vs. Insight: basically, when flat-footed. This would be the Monk's "walking around" mode.)

As for arrows, since the Monk must make a Reflex save, some arrows will still get through. A Mnk2/OLH5 could deflect 10 arrows, but remember that a Fighter7 with Rapid Shot shoots three arrows per round, and a Hasted Fighter7 shoots four. Given how many shots a normal 7th level Fighter can throw, deflecting 10 arrows per round does not seem unreasonable to me.

Finally, since Prestige Classes can be used for all sorts of non-prestigeous, downright icky things (e.g. Oozemaster), it's my opinion that some should start earlier than others. For example, if the Paladin were re-made as a Prestige class, I'd allow it starting at 3rd level.

-- Nifft

 

[Capellan]

Here's my attempt at an "Order of the Long Hand" PrC. Kudos to Nifft for the name and initial idea. Even if we disagree about the mechanics of the class, he had a lot of cool ideas that I shamelessly stole and re-worked.


Order of the Long Hand (OLH)

Most Monks dedicate themselves to a broad array of disciplines, using their training and insights to develop a wide variety of powers and abilities. However, some groups of monks find a particular path that intrigues them, and pursue that to the exclusion of all others. One such is the Order of the Long Hand, which concentrates on the abilities to be gained from continually focussing their Ki.

Requirements:
Alignment: Any Lawful
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Expertise, Stunning Fist, Power Attack
Skills: Concentration (8 ranks), Balance (5 ranks)

Benefits:
Base Attack Bonus: as Monk (3/4); OLH BAB stacks with Monk's Unarmed BAB
Hit Dice: d8
Saves: as Monk
Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft(any), Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession(any), Spot, Swim, Tumble
Weapons & Armour: same as Monk. An OLH who wears armour loses all class abilities except Unarmed Damage until the armour is removed.

Granted Abilities by Level
1) Speed, Unarmed Damage, Long Palm
2) Projected Blade, Wide Palm (2)
3) Long Foot, Sundering Strike or Open Hand
4) Warding Palm, Swift Palm
5) Ki Strike, Wide Palm (3)
6) Projected Foot
7) Projected Palm, Shattering Strike or Projected Disarm
8) Projected Hand, Wide Palm (4)
9) Lethal Strike
10) Projected Fist

Speed: (Ex/Su) The character's base move increases in the same manner as for a Monk of their size category. If the OLH also has Monk levels, the two classes stack for the purposes of calculating the character's base move.
Example: a Monk 6 / OLH 4 has a base Move of 60', the same as a Monk 10 would have.

Unarmed Damage: (Ex) The character's unarmed damage increases in the same manner as for a Monk of their size category. If the OLH also has Monk levels, the two classes stack for the purposes of calculating the character's unarmed damage.
Example: a Monk 6 / OLH 4 does 1d10 damage with their unarmed attacks, the same as a Monk 10 would do.

Long Palm: (Su) The character can project force from their palm. As a full round action, the character may project an invisible force against any target - animate or inanimate - within their normal reach. This force has an effective Strength of 10+OLH class level. It can be used to try and force doors, or as a Bull Rush, acting as a Charging Medium-sized creature when so used.

Wide Palm: (Ex) The character may deflect more than one missile per round; two at 2nd level, three at 5th level, and four at 8th.

Projected Blade: (Ex) The character may throw weapons with precision and force. When throwing any non-improvised weapon that is 'light' for their size category, the OH substitutes the normal BAB and damage of the weapon with their Unarmed BAB and Damage instead.
The OLH can only throw one object per attack when using this ability: it is not possible to properly focus the mind if throwing more.

Long Foot: (Su) The character can project their Ki as solid, focused rays of force. As a standard action, the character may make the equivalent of an Improved Trip attempt on a target up to 5' outside their normal reach.

Sundering Strike: (Ex) At 3rd level, the OLH may choose either this ability, or the Open Hand ability. If they choose Sundering Strike, the character gains the ability to strike and damage objects (including weapons) with an unarmed attack, without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Open Hand: (Ex) At 3rd level, the OLH may choose either this ability, or the Sundering Strike ability. If they choose Open Hand, the OLH knows that the threat of a weapon is an illusion; it is the hand which wields the weapon that is the threat. They know to attack the hand and break the illusion: they are considered to have the Improved Disarm feat when fighting unarmed.

Swift Palm: (Su) The character can use their Long Palm ability as a standard action.

Warding Palm: (Su) the OLH is able to turn aside blows with the force of their Ki, gaining a deflection bonus to AC equal to one half their OLH class level, rounded down. This ability replaces (does not stack with) a Monk's level-based bonus to AC (it does stack with the Wisdom-based AC bonus, however).

Ki Strike: (Su) the OLH's unarmed attack becomes empowered with Ki. The unarmed strike damage from such an attack can deal damage to a creature with damage reduction as if the blow were made with a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus.

Projected Foot: (Su) The character can now use their Long Foot ability as an Attack of Opportunity

Shattering Strike: (Su) If the OLH possesses the Sundering Strike ability, then at 7th level they are able to employ their focused Ki to reduce the Hardness value of objects they strike by half their OLH class level.

Projected Disarm: (Su) If the OLH possesses the Open Hand ability, then at 7th level they are able to project that ability up to 5' outside their normal reach. They cannot use this ability as an Attack of Opportunity. This ability uses Wisdom for the attack modifier, rather than Strength.

Projected Palm: (Su) The character can project their Long Palm ability up to 5' outside their normal reach, and can use it as an Attack of Opportunity: a successful Bull Rush attempt prevents the target from moving out of the threatened space.

Projected Hand: (Su) The OLH has fine-tuned their control to the extent that they can move small, light objects with reasonable control, rather than simply expelling force in a specific direction. The OLH is considered to have the equivalent of a Mage Hand spell running at all times.

Lethal Strike: (Su) The character's Ki powers allow them to guide their strikes so accurately that their unarmed attacks now have a base threat range for critical hits of 19-20/x2, rather than the standard 20/x2. Note that this is an increase to the base range, not a multiplier - if the OLH also has Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), they would threaten a critical on any roll of 17-20.

Projected Fist: (Su) The character has focused their Ki to such an extent that they can make unarmed attacks at a distance. The character can employ any of their attacks up to 5' outside their normal reach. The character's reach attacks use Wisdom for their attack modifier, rather than Strength, and inflict only the base damage (with no bonus for either Strength or Wisdom). Power Attack cannot be used with these attacks. When attacking foes within their normal reach, the OLH can either do so by using this ability (in which case the rules above apply) or their normal melee attack (in which case Strength is used for both attack and damage modifiers, and Power Attack can be used).

Ex-OLH: A monk who becomes non-lawful cannot gain new levels as an OLH but retains all class abilities.

Multi-class Note: Monk characters can freely multi-class with this class. In other words, you can give your monk PC an OLH level, then return to the monk class for your next level, take one or more OLH levels after that,and so on.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Your Order of the Long Hand is an interesting prestige class. There are a couple of things that give me pause however.

Prerequisites: These are really quite easy. The character needs to expend one feat and a few skill points in order to get the class. Prereqs like that don't do anything to balance a lot of spiffy powers. (Even if Expertise requires int 13+ which is normally one of a monk's 2 dump stats). I'd consider adding Iron Will (not too useful for a monk and it seems to fit the theme) or something else to the prerequisites. . . .

Projected Fist: It's good that this ability doesn't actually give the character 10 foot reach but only lets him attack (but not threaten) up to 5' beyond his reach. That's a lot more balanced than allowing the character to threaten at that range. However, allowing the monk to sub his wisdom bonus for strength on attack and damage is probably unbalancing. One of the balancing factors of the monk is that they need a bunch of different scores in order to be effective. This obviates that disadvantage. The monk's wisdom score is now used for attack, defense, and damage. Considering that this class allows the monk's normal open handed damage progression and ranged attacks (as opposed to the Sacred Fist which doesn't allow either), that's too much. (If this is allowed, expect these characters to be dealing 1d20+16 (wisdom of 32--16+4 (level advancement) +6 enhancement +6 inherent) points of damage per attack around 20th level--since they'll also have the full monk attack routine, they'll make fighters and regular monks look like wusses).

Shattering Strke: Ignoring hardness strikes me as a bad idea. Most items have very limited hit points. Ignoring hardness basically means that these characters will sunder at will, almost never failing (especially considering the damage they do). In any case, it seems to me that even if they're good at damaging things, there should still be a difference between adamantium and glass. I'd recommend allowing the character to damage objects as if their hardness were [OotLH class level]/2 lower than normal.

 

[Capellan]

Prerequisites: These are really quite easy.

I agree that they are not too terribly difficult to achieve, though they do require a straight monk of 6th level to achieve them (for the BAB). A multi-class character (who would lose some of the monk 'stacking' that the OLH gets) couldn't get there before 5th as far as I can see, since Balance is not a class skill for any class with a +1 per level BAB.

Still, point taken. I think I'll up the Concentration requirement to 8 ranks, and add Power Attack as a required feat. Given the class's focus on hitting hard, Power Attack makes sense as a required ability.

Projected Fist: allowing the monk to sub his wisdom bonus for strength on attack and damage is probably unbalancing. (wisdom of 32--16+4 (level advancement) +6 enhancement +6 inherent)

Well, on the one hand there is nothing stop a Fighter at 20th level from having a similarly obscene STR ... but on the other I see your point about loading too much onto Wisdom. I've changed it so that Wisdom can still be used for the attack bonus, but if it is, there is no damage modifier, and Power Attack does not apply when using the reach attack.

Shattering Strke: I'd recommend allowing the character to damage objects as if their hardness were [OotLH class level]/2 lower than normal.

Good idea - I've changed the ability to match your suggestion.


Edit: added a rather important word to my first sentence: "not"

 

[Nifft]

Couple that with the fact that - as written - the Mnk2/OLH5 is able to throw 6 shuriken per round doing 1d6 damage each, and that none of their abilities (except their +1 secondary unarmed attack) are negated by armour, and you've got someone who is just begging for a level of Fighter to min/max the character to death.

I don't see this -- I thought that I said the Mnk/OLH could use only thier unarmed attack progression when throwing shuriken, which would allow 2 attacks at 1d6 damage each.

That would be an option; the Mnk/OLH could also use the normal 3 attack / 1 damage each option.

How would I write that?

-- Nifft

PS: Commentary on your PrC coming!

 

[Capellan]

I don't see this -- I thought that I said the Mnk/OLH could use only thier unarmed attack progression when throwing shuriken, which would allow 2 attacks at 1d6 damage each.

Per the PHB you can throw 3 shuriken per attack, each doing 1 point of damage. Since your post reads:

Projected Blade: (Ex) The character may throw exotic objects with precision and force. The character can throw shuruken at the character's favored Unarmed Attack progression (if the character has any Monk levels), and each shuruken does the character's base Unarmed Attack damage.

And you don't specifically state that only 1 shuriken can be thrown per attack, the assumption would be that the standard PHB rules apply. In which case, you end up with 6 shuriken per round. Which is a bit much, I think

If you want to re-word it, I'd suggest just stealing the condition I added to the power in my version of the PrC:

The OLH can only throw one shuriken per attack when using this ability: it is not possible to properly focus the mind if throwing more.

'll be interested to see your thoughts on my version.

 

[Nifft]

Okay, I like most of it, almost all of it in fact (especially the parts I thought up ).

That said, here's what I don't like:
- Sundering Strike & Shattering Strike -- since when do Monks have bonus abilities vs. weapons? It seems un-monkish.

- Lethal Strike -- I think of the OLH powers as supplanting, rather than augmenting, thier normal unarmed attack powers.

- Requirement: Power Attack: As above. The OLH should be about doing things with force of will, not bodily strength.

- Requirement: Stunning Attack. Don't require it unless you're going to do something with it. How about letting an OLH monk stun at range? Perhaps allow normal attacks at level 6, stunning attacks at level 8 and flurry of blows at level 10?

- Warding Palm: Half-way there. IMHO, the monk should be allowed to transfer points from this Deflection Bonus into unarmed attack damage OR attack bonus, like a reverse Expertise. I'd also call it "Warding Will", since it's more an extension of will than a specific hand-motion effect.

- Projected Fist: why does it need ANY ability modifier to add to the monk's UAB? UAB is nothing to be sneezed at! The iterative attack sequence alone, without any Strength or Wisdom bonus, is decent. I'd allow a bonus to damage OR attack, and take it off of the monk's deflection bonus (as above).

- Stacks-With-Monk Abilities: Why give Speed and Unarmed Damage at 1st level and then never again? Real Monks get a bonus to Unarmed Damage at 1st and then at every 4th level (1, 4, 8, 12, etc.). Why not give the OLH a bonus to Damage every 5th level? (1, 5, 10). The lack of damage bonus was part of how I'd thought the 5-level OLH was balanced -- since your 10-level PrC is almost an alternative Monk, you should provide more Monk benefits.

-- Nifft

PS: Thanks for the pointer to the PHB's language on Shuriken... they're not a weapon anyone in any of my games has ever used.

 

[SylverFlame]

Neat

I just had two thoughts on the PrC's. First, they should definently allow multi-classing with monks. Probably a given but it should be stated (it's done in all the books with "monk-esque" PrC's).

Second, why not make a "nothing" feat and require it. In the WoT rpg they have this for latent abilities and with some of the neat abilities the OLH gets it may be worth it.

I was thinking something along these lines.

Ki Focus
Through meditation and thought you have learned to focus your Ki and project it from your body. Others scoff at your "parlor tricks" but you know this is just one step towards fullness of essence.
Benefit: You can focus your Ki and project it as physical force with attacks. You can blow out candles at distances and even make people feel the force of your blows.
Normal: Your ki does not exit your body on attacks.


This adds a new mystique to the PrC and even increases the level min for taking the PrC. You could even put a requirement on the ability so that at least one level of monk is needed. I don't know monks that well so I didn't put it in myself.

Sorry about the length.

 

[Capellan]

Nifft

- Sundering Strike & Shattering Strike -- since when do Monks have bonus abilities vs. weapons? It seems un-monkish.

Ooh, I gotta disagree on that one. Martial artists are forever beating up on bricks and inanimate objects. Plus, given that they have honed their bodies to be weapons, it makes sense to me that they would be able to strike at the 'lesser' tools of their opponents.

C'mon, it's not a real martial arts film unless someone breaks someone else's weapon

- Lethal Strike -- I think of the OLH powers as supplanting, rather than augmenting, thier normal unarmed attack powers.

I think it needs to do both. Given that this is a difference of opinion about the 'feel' of the class, and not a game mechanics thing, I expect we'll have to agree to disagree.

- Requirement: Power Attack: As above. The OLH should be about doing things with force of will, not bodily strength.

Rename it Focussed Strike, set the pre-req at Wis 13+ instead of Str, and voila, instant fix

Personally, I like the Power Attack requirement, since it pushes another decent stat away from Wis. However, I thought SylverFlame's suggestion was very cool, too - the "nothing" Ki Focus ability might be a suitable alternative.

- Requirement: Stunning Attack. Don't require it unless you're going to do something with it. How about letting an OLH monk stun at range? Perhaps allow normal attacks at level 6, stunning attacks at level 8 and flurry of blows at level 10?

I used Stunning Fist becaudse it makes it much harder for a non-monk to get into the class (a good thing, IMO). Note that my OLH can use his stunning atack at range - an OLH 10 can use "any" attack mode to 10'.

- Warding Palm: Half-way there. IMHO, the monk should be allowed to transfer points from this Deflection Bonus into unarmed attack damage OR attack bonus, like a reverse Expertise. I'd also call it "Warding Will", since it's more an extension of will than a specific hand-motion effect.

As far as the name is concerned, I just used Palm because it fit the thematic naming structure. The mechanic you describe is interesting, though I think at this stage that the OLH has enough offensive abilities, and could really use a defensive one.

If the class were to use the mechanic you describe, I'd probably remove the Warding Palm bonus, and simply allow them to use their reverse Expertise on the Monk / Wis AC bonuses they have.

- Projected Fist: why does it need ANY ability modifier to add to the monk's UAB? UAB is nothing to be sneezed at! The iterative attack sequence alone, without any Strength or Wisdom bonus, is decent. I'd allow a bonus to damage OR attack, and take it off of the monk's deflection bonus (as above).

If there is no ability modifier on the attack, no-one will use it. The OLH could simply use Projected Blade to achieve the same amount of damage while still getting their Dex bonus to attack. Or they could step 5' and unleash their Str bonus on both attack and damage. So there needs to be some kind of ability bonus in order for Projected Fist to get any use.

- Stacks-With-Monk Abilities: Why give Speed and Unarmed Damage at 1st level and then never again?

Actually, my intent was that these two abilities stack at every level, not just at 1st. Obviously I didn't make this clear enough. I'll put in an example.

SylverFlame

I just had two thoughts on the PrC's. First, they should definently allow multi-classing with monks. Probably a given but it should be stated (it's done in all the books with "monk-esque" PrC's).

Good point. I'll add it.

Edit: never post without proof-reading