Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[Aus_Snow]

With bells on.

Um, that's in answer to the actual thread title, by the way.

And ah, only if the bells fitted the character concept and. . .

Don't mind me.

 

[shilsen]

Would it be better, perhaps, if instead of saying that prostitutes are evil or immoral, we were simply to say that prostitution itself and the support thereof is evil or immoral? It is a possibility which we will leave open to debate.

I think this thread's already proved that the subject is very open to debate. My point is simply that prostitution is not always evil or immoral. Would you grant that? Also, if it's not obvious yet, I think that any evil/immoral aspects of prostitution have to do with people being forced to do something, rather than the fact that it involves selling sex. As far as I'm concerned, selling sex isn't any more immoral than selling sandwiches.

I was going to make a point about fictionality and the importance of making a distinction between a fantasy setting and the real world, but FireLance has already made that point very nicely above.

And as part of that debate, I will throw this out. If prostitution is such a lucrative career, then why aren't all you "prostitution is not evil/immoral/wrong" proponents out there doing it instead of arguing moral philosophy on a messageboard? Honestly answer that, please.

I'll bite, especially since it's been a long time since someone asked me why I'm not a prostitute The reason I'm not out there doing it is because it would bore me to death. Sex is fun, but I'd hate to have it as a job, since it just doesn't give me the intellectual satisfaction I need in a career. Now if I couldn't find an intellectually satisfying job and had to settle for something else, prostitution would be as good a career as any. And frankly, if I had to choose either prostitution or retail, I'd choose prostitution. Luckily or unluckily, I don't think I'm going to have to make that choice any time soon

 

[Fighter1]

To repeat the gist of a post I made earlier in the thread, one key to the discussion is not found in the paladin himself; rather, it is found in the reaction of the acolyte sent to find him.

I see the logic – now I can see your point of view here…the acolyte; by his reaction; clearly defined in that world’s society (or at least local society in that region, nation, whatever) some of the moral codes and social norms – now that makes sense. My own logic is based upon these same moral codes and social norms being different than say medieval Europe…clearly I now see that they are not.

By the RAW, a paladin's code states that "a paladin’s code requires that she ... act with honor." The acolyte's reaction to Cedric's brothel activities shows us that Cedric is *not* in fact acting with honor - visiting a brothel is clearly a dishonorable act.

Ignoring Mr. Acolyte: And to my own point; I argue that perhaps visiting a brothel is NOT a dishonorable act. In my own home-brewed world (which one could say is Romanish/greekish) this is not an issue.

This point will again raise the sturm and drang of moral relativism versus moral absolutism, but your justification - that a Paladin is an actual person with wants, needs, and desires of his own is not sufficient to overcome the requirement that he act with honor. He has them, yes, but he is not permitted (by the paladin's code) to satisfy those wants, needs, and desires in a dishonorable way. Even if you wish to take up the argument that there might exist a culture where temple prostitution is honorable and encouraged, the simple fact of the matter is that Cedric's culture is not that culture (based on the acolyte's reaction to his exploits), so taking that position is a straw man.

A paladin is hungry. This is a basic human need. Is he permitted to order a meal from an innkeeper and then not pay him? No. That would be cheating (expressly forbidden under the paladin's code). Is he permitted to lie to get a meal? No. Is he permitted to steal a loaf of bread for himself? Not specifically forbidden, but I submit to you that this is not an honorable act; he ought instead to labor for his food. The fact that the paladin has to eat does not excuse him from the paladin's code allow him to get a meal any way he pleases.

A paladin has sexual appetites, too (like all of us). This is actually a tricky one to adjudicate. Is marriage honorable? Probably. But is it honorable to take a wife, knowing full well that the wife (and any children she might bear) might be exposed to danger because Evil forces will know that the best way to hurt him is to attack them? Or to go off on an (unnecessary) adventure once married, knowing that he might die and leave his wife a widow and his children fatherless? Maybe not. Is it then honorable to have a series of one-night stands, even though he may leave a string of fatherless children? Probably not. Satisfying sexual appetites in an honorable fashion is a very tough call. It seems to me that the paladin probably has only a couple of choices that don't result in moral quandries later on down the road... (a) celibacy or (b) retirement from active adventuring upon marriage - at least until the kids are grown, and possibly if his wife is an adventurer, she can go with him.

However, I'm getting off the subject. My point is that "need" does not override "code" - a paladin is not permitted to lie or cheat merely because he "needs" to... the code doesn't make convenient exceptions. So claiming that a paladin has needs and wants and desires is a straw man. If he cannot satisfy those in an honorable fashion - within the strictures of the code - he must go without or lose his paladinhood.

Tough? Yes. But then, living a life of virtue (as a paladin is expected to) never was easy.

--The Sigil

And I agree here; as your basis using the Acolyte’s reaction makes your argument correct IMO. Take the Acolyte out…then there is room for discussion.

Well said Sigal.

well, because "super good guy" is pretty much the stated role of the paladin class in D&D, backed up by the mechanics and flavor text of the PHB? Not to say that you can't change your game to make paladins different, but asking why others might like to play paladins as they were designed seems a little over the top.

That depends on the social norms in your world. As Sigal outlined above; in this case your point here and his hold true. In another society they may very well not; medieval Europe is not the basis for all moral norms in history.

well, I haven't read all of it, but didn't the very first fiction involving this paladin have a member of his church looking askance at his actions? Not a PC with a different idea of what the world should be, but a character created by the same mind as this one and thus operating from a reasonable clear view of what church/diety this fellows supposedly follows? So, questioning our assumptions about the game world doesn't work in this instance.

Sigal outlined that above as well and I agree.

I voted "no" when I first saw this thread, mostly because the character plays as a bit of an attetion whore PC who tries to DM by roleplayed assertions. And overall, self destructive and doomed fate isn't what I look for in PCs.

Role Playing to me is up to the player; he wants to be that way then fine – it adds more reality to the game IMO.

 

[Fighter1]

If I may respond.

Please do; that's why I posted. I'm just glad someone has enough energy left to contest.

First, it is your opinion you are speaking of, and the "strawman" argument doesn't qualify here.

(emphasis added below)

Quote:
Prostitution is wrong as far as I'll ever be concerned.

It should be obvious that this is my opinion and nothing else. Did you think I was inferring otherwise? And the whole "cultural bias" argument is a straw man simply because it is a sham argument being used to divert attention from other arguments against the original debate.

But this forum is about the original debute…no?

1) I am not folloing the first sentence at all.
Nobody said prostitution was idyllic. It isn't a halo profession. Not many women want to have sex with random, strange men who might be disgusting. That doesn't mean every prostitute is doing this job because she is a slave. There are many women who choose to do this on their own, and in the course of a short night make thousands of dollars - if not more (some of the higher ends make anywhere from 10-50k/night).

By idyllic I am referring to the picturesque brothel which came up in the initial post, as well as the "perfect situations" people keep bringing up. Sure there are those who simply choose to do it because they want to make a lot of money per night and don't care about what they're doing. But are they the majority? I'd imagine that they are far from it.

But your interjecting reality into a discussion regarding the situation within the game; its like applying 21st century morality to people 4,000 years ago – it don’t hold water.

As far as prostitution these days; get HBO and watch some documentaries on the subject. Many women get into the “street hooker” bit because of drugs and such and others because they need money – but in the end; addicts or not; mentally messed up or not; they all say they can’t make that kind of cash doing anything else. So what drives them there maybe a problem; what keeps them there is the cash.

The “high end” women; which I agree are not the majority; do it for the money AND because they like it…and most men with some serious cash are not all that disgusting (usually because they have something akin to class).

2)That is fine if you don't care about the RAW, but you cited the RAW a number of times so it must matter somewhat.

When have I ever cited the RAW? I think you are confusing me with someone else. What I did say that I'm more in favor of ignoring or adding to the RAW.

This argument involves the real world and the game; the RAW is sort of caught in the middle; almost irrelevant for this particular argument.

As for your views of morality...well a d100 does have enough facets to cover the full spectrum of people's morality. You may consider prostitution evil - but not everyone does...in fact, i'd wager the majority of the world disagrees with you.

PRotitution being a-moral is a Christian (catholic) concept; stemming from a very small group who took power and felt that the body kept men separate from god…coupling was evil based on that – I’ll stop there and I won’t get into the history for various reasons but read them ‘ole history books well and you’ll see where all this “anti sexuality” stuff comes from.

I'm confused about what you're getting at by referring to a d%. And to tell you the truth, I couldn't care less what the majority of the world thinks, because we as a species have proven time and time again that the majority is usually wrong. The majority of people in this world are morally, ethically, and philosophically uneducated, if not downright ignorant. There's a reason why societies ruled by a benevolent, cultural elite have usually fared better than those ruled by the majority.

Excuse me – but I would LOVE for you to prove some of those statements! Just flat out love it! Are you forgetting the volume of gamers that are history buffs, highly educated and intelligent? And such – before you start tossing out statements like that be sure you can prove them – in this case you flat out cannot. Why? One very simple reason is that your version of morality is different than another’s; your claiming yours is better…does European colonialism ring a bell here? Let’s not get into the wonderful things that they left behind in South East Asia and Africa…all good right? All in the name or Morality right??? Bah.

3) You don't know why each and every woman decided to become a prostitute. Maybe one specific girl is dumb as doornails and realizes that is the only way she will make good money. Maybe another girl wants to have sex with many men and get the benefit of pay. Maybe another is paying her way through college. Maybe another wants to make 25k/night. Then there are those who are looking to live on the streets because they can't find a job - but nobody forced them to be prostitutes. There are MANY homeless men/women who are not prostitutes. There are many homeless people who got off the streets without resorting to crime. You cannot generalize for every prostitute.

A word of common sense here! Finally!

That's an awful strong reaction based on what I actually said. All I did was point out the fact that arguing about objectifying a prostitute vs. objectifying a dancer is a ridiculous way to try to prove a point. Sure there are lots of reasons women get into such careers. I've never disagreed with that and perfectly understand what you're getting at. I never considered the people behind the business to be "evil", because as you pointed out there are a great deal of circumstances which could apply to any given prostitute.

Your other statements do not elude to that.

4) As far as destitute - I disagree with you, and I disagree with the person who said "destitute" and relating it to prostitution as if to be a prositute you have to be destitute. Again, we cannot speak for each and every woman - but I am pretty sure the girl making 25k/night (for ONE guy) is not destitute...in fact, she is going to retire after one year's worth of work -we are going to be working for the next 30-40!

I'd be interesting in hearing a statistic of the average income per night of a prostitute. I'm getting sick of seeing these high numbers being tossed around without anything to back them up. When I say "destitute" I don't mean they'll necessarily be there after they get into prostitution, only that so many turn to it because they already are. What percentage of prostitutes do you think are making 25k a night on only one John, anyway?!?!?!

You can find these on the Internet.

Prostitution is all about opinions. Your morals may say it is wrong - and that is fine. Don't tell me however that prostitution is wrong and evil because I frankly don't buy it. Don't come to me and say "yea but these girls are slaves" because not all prositutes are slaves (or indentured servants, etc) - some - MANY - do it on their own free will and can leave whenever they want. And as for the game rules...find me a pssage in WoTC's books that say prostitution is evil and then my paladin will start smiting the hookers in Sharn.

Would it be better, perhaps, if instead of saying that prostitutes are evil or immoral, we were simply to say that prostitution itself and the support thereof is evil or immoral? It is a possibility which we will leave open to debate. And as part of that debate, I will throw this out. If prostitution is such a lucrative career, then why aren't all you "prostitution is not evil/immoral/wrong" proponents out there doing it instead of arguing moral philosophy on a messageboard? Honestly answer that, please.

Honestly – because as I got older I got fat and lazy. I discovered that I lacked the stamina of other (and younger) men and could never satisfy enough women in one night to make any real money at it. I would venture to guess many men would have the same sort of a response. However; please note; were I gifted in bodily appearance and stamina as some men are there would be no doubt I would be in the “valley” making movies as often as possible!!! 

I would venture to guess that many women may have the same answer or simply that they, personally, don’t want to do it. Perhaps they like computers better?

 

[krunchyfrogg]

At first I wasn't really into the character idea, and I don't think Cedric would fly as a Paladin. But after reading many follow up posts, especially how his character develops I can totally see a Paladin like this.

Very cool concept!

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Hey Shilsen, would you ever consider posting a character sheet of this highly unusual Paladin? I think that would be really cool!

 

[shilsen]

Hey Shilsen, would you ever consider posting a character sheet of this highly unusual Paladin? I think that would be really cool!

Actually I've never really tried to stat Cedric out. Considering the way I've written him, I don't think the mechanics would be particularly unusual. Maybe I should do it sometime just to give people more to argue about

Any suggestions for level and/or anything else, folks? He wouldn't be too low-level, since he took out a succubus (albeit while using enchanted teeth ) and a buffed up evil cleric on his own.

 

[Fighter1]

Actually I've never really tried to stat Cedric out. Considering the way I've written him, I don't think the mechanics would be particularly unusual. Maybe I should do it sometime just to give people more to argue about

Any suggestions for level and/or anything else, folks? He wouldn't be too low-level, since he took out a succubus (albeit while using enchanted teeth ) and a buffed up evil cleric on his own.

Well...How 'bouts a medium armor wearing Paladin (say Breastplate with +3 Dex mod): they all wear heavy stuff - this guy is different obviously. Maybe even make him a TWF (though that sucks up feats like a vacum for anybody including fighters!

And it would mean you need yet another ability score to be higher (for a paly: Str, Cha, some Wis and now Dex as well!))

So maybe sticking with a shield is best (as there are plenty of greatsword weilding paladins as well!) but Maybe using an unusual weapon then; flail, maul, warhammer - something like that.

 

[shilsen]

Well...How 'bouts a medium armor wearing Paladin (say Breastplate with +3 Dex mod): they all wear heavy stuff - this guy is different obviously. Maybe even make him a TWF (though that sucks up feats like a vacum for anybody including fighters!

And it would mean you need yet another ability score to be higher (for a paly: Str, Cha, some Wis and now Dex as well!))

So maybe sticking with a shield is best (as there are plenty of greatsword weilding paladins as well!) but Maybe using an unusual weapon then; flail, maul, warhammer - something like that.

I'll have to go back and check on the little elements in how I'd written him up which tend towards certain mechanics. I definitely hadn't set him up as a TWF guy in the fight with the succubus and the cleric, but he does strike me as a lightly armored type. Maybe using a one-handed weapon with no shield (oh, the horror!) or even a rapier with Weapon Finesse. I'm also thinking a couple of levels of rogue would fit Cedric fine and give him the varied skillset I have in mind.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I'd allow him.

As long as you made him a Paladin of Lust.

Personally, I don't care about RAW, or whatever.

It's an interesting background and character, the Goddess of Lust needs Paladins to protect her temples and worshippers and holy places.

So yeah, you'd be in.