Aurondarklord
First Post
Well, this thread has been necroed years after the last response before, and it's SUCH A GOOD THREAD, I figure I can throw in my two cents even though I'm late to the party.
Now, I haven't read all 82 pages here, but I've read the first few pages and most of the fiction to form an opinion.
To the stated question, would I personally allow this paladin in a game I was running? Yes, absolutely I would. The people I play with are mature and have no trouble with moral grey areas, and I like the character and care a lot more about having a good game than arguing about the rules.
To the IMPLIED question which has been the subject of most of the debate here, is Sir Cedric acceptable as a paladin under the letter and spirit of the 3E rules as written, I would, with a great deal of consideration, say the rules don't technically bar him, but it very much depends on the table and the setting the DM created.
The question is basically, can a paladin drink, swear, frequent prostitutes, have a deeply cynical worldview, and be rude to people?
I think it depends a lot on the setting and the religion of the paladin in question. A paladin of Saint Cuthbert is not going to behave exactly the same as a paladin of Pelor, who certainly won't behave like a paladin of X DM's custom LG deity, because different Gods will have different expectations and rules. I think one of the problems in this thread is that the question is being seen through an overly judeo-christian lens when not every religion has to be a carbon copy of that.
Drunkenness: One of the iconic D&D images is the party meeting in a tavern, or returning there to celebrate slaying some monster, the consumption of alcohol seems to be assumed, and in fact complete scoundrel's grey guard paladin prestige class at one point references that their quick and easy atonement bonus only applies to things they do in the name of their religion, using as an example that beating a confession out of a heretic could get quick atonement, but starting a bar brawl couldn't...implying that the paladin's merely drinking in the bar is NOT against the rules by simply assuming it. And you can't tell me that a dwarven paladin of Moradin or....well a paladin of anybody if you're using the Norse pantheon, is forbidden from alcohol. As for actually getting well and truly drunk...I think it depends HOW drunk he gets. A paladin should never become so intoxicated they are unable to do their job or lose control of themselves. If I were a God, I wouldn't waste my divine power on a guy who's gonna drunkenly smite barstools in half instead of using those smites on evil beings, or be sleeping it off in a ditch while the town is sacked by orcs. Cedric however does not appear to be that drunk, he is entirely coherent and appears to be of sound mind and body, so he seems fine in that regard. Obviously, if his religion has a prohibition against alcohol, or he has taken the vow of abstinence feat, he should not imbibe it, but that's a question specific to the individual setting, character, and religion, not the rules of D&D in general.
Can a paladin swear? Why not? I know of no religion the prohibits the use of foul language, or that even attempts to define foul language. What makes one term for excrement inherently more vulgar than another? must a paladin refrain from discussing the subject entirely? No matter how holy he is, he can't refrain from DOING it, why must he not talk about it? This seems silly, the idea that paladins are flowery-talking dandies is entirely a player-created convention, not an actual part of the rules, and as other people have said, many of these words were just the way common people spoke in medieval times, which has, to our modern society, become considered "vulgar" while the words used by nobles came to be considered polite. If Sir Cedric were a man of humble beginnings in a realistic medieval setting, that's just how he'd talk, and while paladins thematically evoke real world knighthood, or at least an idealized version of it, the rules of D&D never say nor imply that paladins must be knights or otherwise well born.
Can a paladin frequent prostitutes? This is a much thornier issue. Here, it really depends on the setting. Not all religions demonize sex the way Christianity does. Many ancient cultures had religiously-sponsored prostitution, and we've all heard of ancient greek orgies. Simply the fact that Cedric is engaging in sex outside marriage or a committed relationship should only be a problem if the specifics of his religion bar it. As for the prostitution itself...totally a setting question. Paladins must respect legitimate authority, if prostitution is illegal in the area in which he currently resides, and that rule has been enacted by a just and legitimate government, then he must obey it. Paladins, being required to protect the weak and fight evil, must also respect human dignity, and taking sexual advantage of helpless women forced into the sex trade would go completely against that. In fact, Cedric would be obligated by his code to free these women and punish the people who put them in such a situation. Of course, these things aren't necessarily an issue if the DM doesn't say they are. In most of the medieval and ancient world, prostitution was perfectly legal, open, and expected. Most commoners could not afford to feed anymore mouths than they had to, and while excess sons could join the army or the clergy, more daughters than you could marry off and provide dowry for was a huge financial burden, so it was extremely common practice to send them, or outright sell them, to the local brothel. Sounds pretty bad, yeah, but so's dying of starvation, and the best most common people could do back then was bare subsistence farming, if they were lucky. Prostitution can simply be one of the many things people do to survive in a very harsh world, no more evil than for Cedric to have a blacksmith shoe his horse, if the DM wants. Heck, if the DM wants, it can all be glamorous "secret diary of a call girl" prostitution where the girls are all happy nymphos. That's not very realistic, but if that's the game you want to play, the rules of D&D don't stop you. In this particular case, Madame Catherine seems to run a clean and respectable establishment and be kind to her girls, and they're fond of Cedric and freely consenting adults. So long as Cedric only frequents such establishments, and by his words and deeds denounces those that mistreat their girls or force them into such a life, I see no rules problem here so long as his religion has no specific prohibition against prostitution or premarital sex.
Can a paladin be rude? To a point. Cedric is not needlessly mean or offputting, he's just very blunt and quick to disillusion people who come to him with what he sees as an unrealistic worldview. I don't think a paladin is allowed to just be verbally cruel and abusive, but nowhere in the rules does it say they must have limitless patience or indulge idiots with flattery and kind words. Sometimes, tearing off someone's rose colored glasses is doing them a favor, even saving their life if you live in a particularly harsh world.
And the final point, in my mind the big one...
Can a paladin be a jaded cynic? Once again, this depends on the setting and the religion. I absolutely believe a paladin has a responsibility to try to inspire not only moral behavior, but hope and faith. Just...not unrealistic hope. I think it's not only crazy, but nowhere said, implied, or suggested by the rules as written, that a paladin has to be divorced from reality or try to convince other people that they should be. If a paladin is leading an army into an obviously hopeless battle, he has not only the right, but I would say the duty, to tell them that it's a hopeless battle, and that they'll all likely die, even though he believes the cause worth dying for. He doesn't have to live in cloud cookoo land where he thinks they'll miraculously win in defiance of all logic just because they're the good guys. I don't believe a paladin has to be don quixote, tilting at windmills and willing to throw their life away on principle even when they know it won't actually accomplish anything, nor should they encourage others to behave that way. While Christianity may have the notion that the ultimate triumph of God over Satan is inevitable, and that all that matters in the cosmic scheme of things is a person's faith and virtue so they get into Heaven, in most D&D settings, including the default one, the battle between good and evil is not decided ahead of time, and in fact is often dependent on the actions of the player characters. All the virtue in the world won't help anybody if Asmodeus overruns the cosmos and eats Mount Celestia and the souls of everyone there. If this game takes place in a grimdark setting, and all Cedric is doing is telling people the truth, I see no problem. A paladin does not have to believe the world to be better than it actually is, only that it can be, and should be. He has to believe his cause is worth fighting for, not necessarily that he can win if realistically it doesn't look like he can. A paladin must have faith, yes, but not blind idiot faith that doesn't correspond to reality. The rules should never encourage characters to act like idiots. Obviously, conversely a paladin should never be a downer, telling everybody it's hopeless and they should lay down and die when things aren't nearly that bad, but that doesn't seem to be happening here.
A lot of what I've said above is mostly my own opinions, but I think they're backed up by perhaps the most important statement wizards has ever put out on the subject. From the book of exalted deeds: "Good is not nice, polite, well mannered, self righteous, or naive". A paladin very much has to be a great example of good, but those things don't define good, therefore a paladin does not need to be them. and I think all of the issues above except the prostitution one, fall under questions of whether he's required to be nice, polite and well mannered, or naive. You could even argue that requiring he avoid prostitution even if it's not inherently evil in the context of the setting, but just a symptom of the fact the setting is not a perfect world, is requiring him to be self-righteous. And while I also believe a paladin must set a good example, I don't think they're required, or even that it's necessarily a good thing, for them to try to set an unrealistic and unattainable example. A paladin should be seen by the people as an example to aspire to. A paladin who's a perfect saint doesn't help, no one can live up to that, and most will despair of trying. Living in a 24/7 state of constant vigilance and self-denial, measuring every word and gesture to avoid the slightest hint you might not be perfect...that's no kind of life, a world where everyone acted like that would be a world where everyone was miserable, and that isn't what a paladin should stand for. A paladin should show people that they can live their lives, enjoy themselves, and still stand up when it really matters and reject evil. And I don't believe a paladin should be held hostage to the idea that someone, anyone, a stupid person or a person looking for an excuse, might misinterpret their behavior, do something totally different, and draw a false equivalency between what they did and what the paladin did to justify themselves. Cedric gave patronage to a legal brothel where he had sex with well treated and consenting prostitutes. If someone uses that as an excuse to go to someplace shady and rape women who were beaten and drugged into sexual slavery, that's not Cedric's fault, though woe unto that person if they meet Cedric after doing so. Paladins are not responsible for the stupid or willfully ignorant behavior of everyone else in the world. Cedric sets a fine example if you actually bother to pay attention.
Now, I haven't read all 82 pages here, but I've read the first few pages and most of the fiction to form an opinion.
To the stated question, would I personally allow this paladin in a game I was running? Yes, absolutely I would. The people I play with are mature and have no trouble with moral grey areas, and I like the character and care a lot more about having a good game than arguing about the rules.
To the IMPLIED question which has been the subject of most of the debate here, is Sir Cedric acceptable as a paladin under the letter and spirit of the 3E rules as written, I would, with a great deal of consideration, say the rules don't technically bar him, but it very much depends on the table and the setting the DM created.
The question is basically, can a paladin drink, swear, frequent prostitutes, have a deeply cynical worldview, and be rude to people?
I think it depends a lot on the setting and the religion of the paladin in question. A paladin of Saint Cuthbert is not going to behave exactly the same as a paladin of Pelor, who certainly won't behave like a paladin of X DM's custom LG deity, because different Gods will have different expectations and rules. I think one of the problems in this thread is that the question is being seen through an overly judeo-christian lens when not every religion has to be a carbon copy of that.
Drunkenness: One of the iconic D&D images is the party meeting in a tavern, or returning there to celebrate slaying some monster, the consumption of alcohol seems to be assumed, and in fact complete scoundrel's grey guard paladin prestige class at one point references that their quick and easy atonement bonus only applies to things they do in the name of their religion, using as an example that beating a confession out of a heretic could get quick atonement, but starting a bar brawl couldn't...implying that the paladin's merely drinking in the bar is NOT against the rules by simply assuming it. And you can't tell me that a dwarven paladin of Moradin or....well a paladin of anybody if you're using the Norse pantheon, is forbidden from alcohol. As for actually getting well and truly drunk...I think it depends HOW drunk he gets. A paladin should never become so intoxicated they are unable to do their job or lose control of themselves. If I were a God, I wouldn't waste my divine power on a guy who's gonna drunkenly smite barstools in half instead of using those smites on evil beings, or be sleeping it off in a ditch while the town is sacked by orcs. Cedric however does not appear to be that drunk, he is entirely coherent and appears to be of sound mind and body, so he seems fine in that regard. Obviously, if his religion has a prohibition against alcohol, or he has taken the vow of abstinence feat, he should not imbibe it, but that's a question specific to the individual setting, character, and religion, not the rules of D&D in general.
Can a paladin swear? Why not? I know of no religion the prohibits the use of foul language, or that even attempts to define foul language. What makes one term for excrement inherently more vulgar than another? must a paladin refrain from discussing the subject entirely? No matter how holy he is, he can't refrain from DOING it, why must he not talk about it? This seems silly, the idea that paladins are flowery-talking dandies is entirely a player-created convention, not an actual part of the rules, and as other people have said, many of these words were just the way common people spoke in medieval times, which has, to our modern society, become considered "vulgar" while the words used by nobles came to be considered polite. If Sir Cedric were a man of humble beginnings in a realistic medieval setting, that's just how he'd talk, and while paladins thematically evoke real world knighthood, or at least an idealized version of it, the rules of D&D never say nor imply that paladins must be knights or otherwise well born.
Can a paladin frequent prostitutes? This is a much thornier issue. Here, it really depends on the setting. Not all religions demonize sex the way Christianity does. Many ancient cultures had religiously-sponsored prostitution, and we've all heard of ancient greek orgies. Simply the fact that Cedric is engaging in sex outside marriage or a committed relationship should only be a problem if the specifics of his religion bar it. As for the prostitution itself...totally a setting question. Paladins must respect legitimate authority, if prostitution is illegal in the area in which he currently resides, and that rule has been enacted by a just and legitimate government, then he must obey it. Paladins, being required to protect the weak and fight evil, must also respect human dignity, and taking sexual advantage of helpless women forced into the sex trade would go completely against that. In fact, Cedric would be obligated by his code to free these women and punish the people who put them in such a situation. Of course, these things aren't necessarily an issue if the DM doesn't say they are. In most of the medieval and ancient world, prostitution was perfectly legal, open, and expected. Most commoners could not afford to feed anymore mouths than they had to, and while excess sons could join the army or the clergy, more daughters than you could marry off and provide dowry for was a huge financial burden, so it was extremely common practice to send them, or outright sell them, to the local brothel. Sounds pretty bad, yeah, but so's dying of starvation, and the best most common people could do back then was bare subsistence farming, if they were lucky. Prostitution can simply be one of the many things people do to survive in a very harsh world, no more evil than for Cedric to have a blacksmith shoe his horse, if the DM wants. Heck, if the DM wants, it can all be glamorous "secret diary of a call girl" prostitution where the girls are all happy nymphos. That's not very realistic, but if that's the game you want to play, the rules of D&D don't stop you. In this particular case, Madame Catherine seems to run a clean and respectable establishment and be kind to her girls, and they're fond of Cedric and freely consenting adults. So long as Cedric only frequents such establishments, and by his words and deeds denounces those that mistreat their girls or force them into such a life, I see no rules problem here so long as his religion has no specific prohibition against prostitution or premarital sex.
Can a paladin be rude? To a point. Cedric is not needlessly mean or offputting, he's just very blunt and quick to disillusion people who come to him with what he sees as an unrealistic worldview. I don't think a paladin is allowed to just be verbally cruel and abusive, but nowhere in the rules does it say they must have limitless patience or indulge idiots with flattery and kind words. Sometimes, tearing off someone's rose colored glasses is doing them a favor, even saving their life if you live in a particularly harsh world.
And the final point, in my mind the big one...
Can a paladin be a jaded cynic? Once again, this depends on the setting and the religion. I absolutely believe a paladin has a responsibility to try to inspire not only moral behavior, but hope and faith. Just...not unrealistic hope. I think it's not only crazy, but nowhere said, implied, or suggested by the rules as written, that a paladin has to be divorced from reality or try to convince other people that they should be. If a paladin is leading an army into an obviously hopeless battle, he has not only the right, but I would say the duty, to tell them that it's a hopeless battle, and that they'll all likely die, even though he believes the cause worth dying for. He doesn't have to live in cloud cookoo land where he thinks they'll miraculously win in defiance of all logic just because they're the good guys. I don't believe a paladin has to be don quixote, tilting at windmills and willing to throw their life away on principle even when they know it won't actually accomplish anything, nor should they encourage others to behave that way. While Christianity may have the notion that the ultimate triumph of God over Satan is inevitable, and that all that matters in the cosmic scheme of things is a person's faith and virtue so they get into Heaven, in most D&D settings, including the default one, the battle between good and evil is not decided ahead of time, and in fact is often dependent on the actions of the player characters. All the virtue in the world won't help anybody if Asmodeus overruns the cosmos and eats Mount Celestia and the souls of everyone there. If this game takes place in a grimdark setting, and all Cedric is doing is telling people the truth, I see no problem. A paladin does not have to believe the world to be better than it actually is, only that it can be, and should be. He has to believe his cause is worth fighting for, not necessarily that he can win if realistically it doesn't look like he can. A paladin must have faith, yes, but not blind idiot faith that doesn't correspond to reality. The rules should never encourage characters to act like idiots. Obviously, conversely a paladin should never be a downer, telling everybody it's hopeless and they should lay down and die when things aren't nearly that bad, but that doesn't seem to be happening here.
A lot of what I've said above is mostly my own opinions, but I think they're backed up by perhaps the most important statement wizards has ever put out on the subject. From the book of exalted deeds: "Good is not nice, polite, well mannered, self righteous, or naive". A paladin very much has to be a great example of good, but those things don't define good, therefore a paladin does not need to be them. and I think all of the issues above except the prostitution one, fall under questions of whether he's required to be nice, polite and well mannered, or naive. You could even argue that requiring he avoid prostitution even if it's not inherently evil in the context of the setting, but just a symptom of the fact the setting is not a perfect world, is requiring him to be self-righteous. And while I also believe a paladin must set a good example, I don't think they're required, or even that it's necessarily a good thing, for them to try to set an unrealistic and unattainable example. A paladin should be seen by the people as an example to aspire to. A paladin who's a perfect saint doesn't help, no one can live up to that, and most will despair of trying. Living in a 24/7 state of constant vigilance and self-denial, measuring every word and gesture to avoid the slightest hint you might not be perfect...that's no kind of life, a world where everyone acted like that would be a world where everyone was miserable, and that isn't what a paladin should stand for. A paladin should show people that they can live their lives, enjoy themselves, and still stand up when it really matters and reject evil. And I don't believe a paladin should be held hostage to the idea that someone, anyone, a stupid person or a person looking for an excuse, might misinterpret their behavior, do something totally different, and draw a false equivalency between what they did and what the paladin did to justify themselves. Cedric gave patronage to a legal brothel where he had sex with well treated and consenting prostitutes. If someone uses that as an excuse to go to someplace shady and rape women who were beaten and drugged into sexual slavery, that's not Cedric's fault, though woe unto that person if they meet Cedric after doing so. Paladins are not responsible for the stupid or willfully ignorant behavior of everyone else in the world. Cedric sets a fine example if you actually bother to pay attention.
