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WTF is "cold iron", and why's it so special?

gator001

Villager
Was very obviously answered by my question. Person 1:"Hey Mike! You wanna go to Vegas with us?" Mike:"Did Mike Tyson hit like a ton of bricks?"



Humans are naturally occurring. Nature provided them, unless you are arguing creationism.



Dunno. I didn't say that. What I said is that some acts are natural and some, probably most, are not.
Which ones?
 

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gator001

Villager
As I said, the end result is the determining factor. Yes ant construct the dirt hill, but dirt hills are as common as, well, dirt. Beehives, not so much. What bees construct are not found nature. Sure, you can find hex shapes in nature, but not made out of wax and built into a home. That's also the reason that reproduction is a completely natural act, but building a house/hive is not.
What does rarity have to do with naturality? What is unnatural about building a house or hive?
 

gator001

Villager
Okay. So maybe the hive is a bad example. :p A car isn't required for any sort of natural process and doesn't come from any sort of natural process. The same goes for houses and many other acts that humans engage in.
Every process involved in making a car is natural.
 

gator001

Villager
You do know what context is, right? When discussing whether things are natural or not, saying one is common as dirt and the other not so much is saying that one is natural and the other is not is in the context of natural vs. unnatural, not rarity. We're back to that dichotomy, though as happened later in this discussion I acknowledged that hives are a part of nature. That's why I'm back to cars as the example of something unnatural.



It's not circular. It's a thing is natural if it occurs in nature. That, despite your assertion there, does not equate to a thing is natural if it's natural. A car for example, does not occur in nature. Ever. It must be constructed by mankind through a large number of unnatural(does not occur in nature) processes.


No. Everything occurs in the universe. That's different than occurring in nature.
Why did you mention beehives being less common than dirt? What does that have to do with anything?
 


gator001

Villager
Artificial things are, by definition, unnatural in some sense.

But artifical things clearly exist in the world, and are produced by beings that exist in the world. Hence there is some sense in which things can exist in and as part of the world, yet not be natural.

What's the relevant sense, and where are the boundaries to be found? The most pithy treatment I know of in the D&D context is found in Gygax's AD&D books, particularly the discussin of True Neutral alignment:

The "true" neutral looks upon all other alignments as facets of the system of things. Thus, each aspect - evil and good, chaos and law - of things must be retained in balance to maintain the status quo; for things as they are cannot be improved upon except temporarily, and even then but superficially. Nature will prevail and keep things as they were meant to be, provided the "wheel" surrounding the hub of nature does not become unbalanced due to the work of unnatural forces - such as human and other intelligent creatures interfering with what is meant to be. (PHB p 33)​
Absolute, or true, neutral creatures view everything which exists as an integral, necessary port or function of the entire cosmos. Each thing exists as a part of the whole, one as a check or balance to the other, with life necessary for death, happiness for suffering, good for evil, order far chaos, and vice versa. Nothing must ever become predominant or out of balance. Within this noturalistic ethos, humankind serves a role also, just as all other creatures do. They may be more or less important, but the neutral does not concern himself or herself with these considerations except where it is positively determined that the balance is threatened. (DMG p 33)​

Nature is "the cosmos" that is in a state of balance as a result of the interaction of its constituent elements and processes. Intelligent beings are a risk to that balance, as they bring their own goals and purposes which are not necessarily integrated into the balance of natural elements and processes. It's easy to see how this idea relates to certain real world religious and philosophical positions (eg Stoicism; some forms of Taoism and Taoist-influenced Buddhism; some strands of contemporary environmentalism). And it helps us see the difference between natural and unnatural human activity - the latter consists in purposive activity undertaken with indifference to its impact upon the balance of natural elements and processes. Building a small homestead or even village probably doesn't count; raising an army and mining the ore and then forging the arms and armour to equip them almost certainly does!

How exactly this fits into our understanding of "cold" iron and faeries I'll leave for others to work out.
The idea that there exists such a thing as artificial objects is entirely the result of sloppy thinking.
 







pemerton

Legend
The idea that there exists such a thing as artificial objects is entirely the result of sloppy thinking.
When a food manufacturer tells me that their product does contain artificial sweeteners, they are conveying information.

When someone contrasts the natural shelter of a cave with the artificial shelter of a tent, they are drawing a meaningful contrast.

Artificial seems cognate with artefact (and a quick Google just confirmed that). Some things are the result of artifice. Some are not.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
When a food manufacturer tells me that their product does contain artificial sweeteners, they are conveying information.

When someone contrasts the natural shelter of a cave with the artificial shelter of a tent, they are drawing a meaningful contrast.

Artificial seems cognate with artefact (and a quick Google just confirmed that). Some things are the result of artifice. Some are not.
The guy created his account today, instigated in this thread a bunch, and then ended his account.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
When a food manufacturer tells me that their product does contain artificial sweeteners, they are conveying information.

When someone contrasts the natural shelter of a cave with the artificial shelter of a tent, they are drawing a meaningful contrast.

Artificial seems cognate with artefact (and a quick Google just confirmed that). Some things are the result of artifice. Some are not.
That poster has been banned for repeated misbehavior in at least three threads. FYI.
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
OK. I wanna ask, what does someone have to do to get banned within a day? But maybe there are some things that humanity was simply not meant to know.
I'm assuming, but I don't think he was banned. I think he made the account to stir things up and then closed it. The tone of his posts here made it seem like he was just about instigating.
 

J.Quondam

CR 1/8
I'm assuming, but I don't think he was banned. I think he made the account to stir things up and then closed it. The tone of his posts here made it seem like he was just about instigating.
Yeah, I got the impression it was a sock puppet by another poster who wanted to stir stuff up without getting their main banned.
🤷‍♂️
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Just my two cents, but anyone who needs a sock puppet account is probably a sad little person. Anyway, back to cold iron and it's many uses! Can anyone tell me if it makes julienne fries?
 

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