Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
jaults said:
A very reasonable solution, I'd say! The CR system is a good rule of thumb, but if you follow it slavishly, you're bound to run into weird nonsensical situations.
Daniel
XP for Animal Companions?
- Thread starter jaults
- Start date
A very reasonable solution, I'd say! The CR system is a good rule of thumb, but if you follow it slavishly, you're bound to run into weird nonsensical situations.
Daniel
Pielorinho said:
I cannot name the thread, but something very like this has been discussed. If you happen to find the thread, more power to you
Actually, such a situation is thoroughly consistent with the usual policy that summoned critters fall under the primary character's CR. The logic is tied to the idea that you get XP for an encounter, rather than for a creature. Ask yourself - who or what did the party encounter? That tells you what to base the XP award on.
Normally, if the PCs encounter a wizard, and that wizard casts fireballs, you don't give extra XP for each fireball. Neither should you give XP for any other particular spell an opponent casts - which means you don't give XP for summoned monsters if the encounter is with the summoner
Now, say a party is in a wizard's lair, and the wizard has set a trap that shoots a fireball. The fact that the wizard cast spells to create the trap does not make it an encounter with the wizard. The wizard is not present. The backstory that the wizard created the trap doesn't change that. The party instead gets XP for encountering a trap.
In the encounter you describe, the party does not meet the spellcaster. It is therefore not an encounter with the spellcaster. This is, in essence, just like the trap. This is an encounter with creatures.
Now, the spellcaster has used some spells. If the party meets him a day later, after he's prepared more spells, he's back at full strength, and the party can get full XP for him. If the party meets him before he gets to prepare new spells, he's not a caster at full strength, and should be worth somewhat less XP.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Hold on a minute!
Woah! Did I miss something here?
Let me propose a counter example.
Bob tracks down some adventurers who have been despoiling the land, and keep forgetting to put out their campfires.
#1) Bob has cast Animal Friendship on a wolf, and therefore has the wolf as a companion. He and the adventurers have a showdown, and in the end the adventurers win, collecting 300 XP.
#2) Bob and his wolf ran away to live another day. The adventurers meanwhile have rested and are ready for more hackin' and slashin'!
The adventurers come across a wolf (worth 300 XP) and start fighting it. The second round Bob and his wolf companion show up, worth another 300 XP if the adventurers win.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see two problems here: first of all, in the quoted example, Bob the druid should have an animal companion. Otherwise he's a lot less powerful.
Second of all, a wolf's CR is probably too high if it's worth as much as Bob and his wolf
I'm going to use a dire bear as an example, since it's CR is probably more reasonable.
At 12th-level, Bob has a dire bear as his companion. The dire bear's CR is only 7. Bob and the dire bear have a CR of 12. Bob's CR, without a dire bear, is not 12, since he doesn't have access to all of his abilities (eg animal companions).
If you don't believe me, challenge your PCs to fight a druid, and then a druid of the same level with his companions. Then tell me if the solitary druid was worth all those XP.
Woah! Did I miss something here?
Let me propose a counter example.
Bob tracks down some adventurers who have been despoiling the land, and keep forgetting to put out their campfires.
#1) Bob has cast Animal Friendship on a wolf, and therefore has the wolf as a companion. He and the adventurers have a showdown, and in the end the adventurers win, collecting 300 XP.
#2) Bob and his wolf ran away to live another day. The adventurers meanwhile have rested and are ready for more hackin' and slashin'!
The adventurers come across a wolf (worth 300 XP) and start fighting it. The second round Bob and his wolf companion show up, worth another 300 XP if the adventurers win.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see two problems here: first of all, in the quoted example, Bob the druid should have an animal companion. Otherwise he's a lot less powerful.
Second of all, a wolf's CR is probably too high if it's worth as much as Bob and his wolf
I'm going to use a dire bear as an example, since it's CR is probably more reasonable.
At 12th-level, Bob has a dire bear as his companion. The dire bear's CR is only 7. Bob and the dire bear have a CR of 12. Bob's CR, without a dire bear, is not 12, since he doesn't have access to all of his abilities (eg animal companions).
If you don't believe me, challenge your PCs to fight a druid, and then a druid of the same level with his companions. Then tell me if the solitary druid was worth all those XP.
OK, I'll try this again. One point-this does break down for a 1st level druid, because a 1st level druid is allowed to have twice his hit dice in animal companions whether adventuring or not. (This is probably a bad idea, because of the experience point issues you're bringing up, but it sure helps keep those 1st level druid PC's alive. )
There are specific guidelines in the DMG for increasing or decreasing experience point awards based on the difficulty of the encounter. Dealing with a sedentary druid in her lair, including twice her hit dice of animal companions (not to mention the snares, magical protections, and home-ground terrain familiarity) certainly warrants at least a 50% (and possibly a 100%) increase in the experience award for the encounter.
So, a sedentary 6th level druid with her two brown bear companions would normally be worth at least 2700 and possibly 3600 experience points to a 6th level party-as much as three or four brown bears by themselves.
A normal, adventuring 6th level druid is CR6, and has one CR4 brown bear companion. She is worth 1800 experience points under normal conditions, as much as two brown bears by themselves.
I fully agree that this is seems out of whack-the druid (herself) is worth more than a brown bear by itself. My point is this-the druid cannot possibly be under-valued by this system. A PC party of four 6th-level druids meeting an NPC party of four 6th-level druids (each with their respective animal companions) is a toss-up match (obviously, right?), so the individual 6th-level druids must, by the definition of the CR system, be a CR of 6 with their animal companions included. If you bump the druids up to CR8 because of their companions, then you have to conclude that two 6th-level druids are a deadly threat to a party of 4 6th-level druids. But then, one 6th-level druid must be a deadly threat to the two 6th-level druids, so the PC party has a better chance to win if three of them just run away ...
There are three possible conclusions to be drawn from this. (1) The CR system as a whole is flawed. (2) The CR's for animals are too high. (3) Druids are unbalanced compared to the other PC classes-they need to have their animal companion ability removed or toned down to bring them in check.
If you've played much 3rd Edition D&D, I'm sure you'll agree that (3) is false. (Actually, it may be true for 1st level druids, as I mentioned above. If a wolf, on its own, is a credible threat to a whole 1st level party, then a party member with a wolf companion, even with poor armor and weapon selection and limited spell capacity, is probably a bit overpowered.) (1) and (2) are both true to an extent. I really don't see a typical 4th level party being significantly challenged by a brown bear. Smart tactics, especially smart use of missile weapons and the speed of the mounts they certainly ought to have at that level, should bring that bear low fairly quickly. (Of course, standing toe-to-toe in melee with it is probably fatal to the party just as quickly, but if they've survived to 4th level they should have a good idea of when not to do that.) CR3 might be more appropriate ... Anyway, it's still a useful object lesson in not being too slavish in following the published CR's. At minimum, a DM needs to pay attention to the guidelines on page 167 under 'Modifying Encounter Levels'. This will solve 90% of the problems with CR's, if used appropriately.
)There are specific guidelines in the DMG for increasing or decreasing experience point awards based on the difficulty of the encounter. Dealing with a sedentary druid in her lair, including twice her hit dice of animal companions (not to mention the snares, magical protections, and home-ground terrain familiarity) certainly warrants at least a 50% (and possibly a 100%) increase in the experience award for the encounter.
So, a sedentary 6th level druid with her two brown bear companions would normally be worth at least 2700 and possibly 3600 experience points to a 6th level party-as much as three or four brown bears by themselves.
A normal, adventuring 6th level druid is CR6, and has one CR4 brown bear companion. She is worth 1800 experience points under normal conditions, as much as two brown bears by themselves.
I fully agree that this is seems out of whack-the druid (herself) is worth more than a brown bear by itself. My point is this-the druid cannot possibly be under-valued by this system. A PC party of four 6th-level druids meeting an NPC party of four 6th-level druids (each with their respective animal companions) is a toss-up match (obviously, right?), so the individual 6th-level druids must, by the definition of the CR system, be a CR of 6 with their animal companions included. If you bump the druids up to CR8 because of their companions, then you have to conclude that two 6th-level druids are a deadly threat to a party of 4 6th-level druids. But then, one 6th-level druid must be a deadly threat to the two 6th-level druids, so the PC party has a better chance to win if three of them just run away ...
There are three possible conclusions to be drawn from this. (1) The CR system as a whole is flawed. (2) The CR's for animals are too high. (3) Druids are unbalanced compared to the other PC classes-they need to have their animal companion ability removed or toned down to bring them in check.
If you've played much 3rd Edition D&D, I'm sure you'll agree that (3) is false. (Actually, it may be true for 1st level druids, as I mentioned above. If a wolf, on its own, is a credible threat to a whole 1st level party, then a party member with a wolf companion, even with poor armor and weapon selection and limited spell capacity, is probably a bit overpowered.) (1) and (2) are both true to an extent. I really don't see a typical 4th level party being significantly challenged by a brown bear. Smart tactics, especially smart use of missile weapons and the speed of the mounts they certainly ought to have at that level, should bring that bear low fairly quickly. (Of course, standing toe-to-toe in melee with it is probably fatal to the party just as quickly, but if they've survived to 4th level they should have a good idea of when not to do that.) CR3 might be more appropriate ... Anyway, it's still a useful object lesson in not being too slavish in following the published CR's. At minimum, a DM needs to pay attention to the guidelines on page 167 under 'Modifying Encounter Levels'. This will solve 90% of the problems with CR's, if used appropriately.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Pielorinho said:
That is a good point. I think you're right when you say sometimes these insensibilities crop in using CR, and this is one of them. Though, as (Psi)Severed-Head illustrates, the strangeness of it grows less as the druid progresses. It's mostly at the low levels that it works strangely.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Well, I've played 3E on an almost weekly basis since it was released; since July, I've played a druid in RttToEE. And we've been thinking that #3 is true.
A brown bear or a tiger can rip up opponents like nobody's business, especially if they receive a mage armor spell. I'd certainly rather be attacked by a 6th-level fighter than by a brown bear:
-the fighter moves more slowly
-each hit from the fighter probably does less damage
-the fighter doesn't try to grapple me with each hit
-the fighter gets one less attack/round.
In his favor, the fighter gets a higher AC (but not by much, if the bear has a mage armor on), the ability to use items, and most importantly, ranged weapons.
If you don't believe me, try a battle between a standard 6th-level fighter from the DMG and a bear with mage armor cast on her. To be fair, the fighter's already drunk the potion of endurance. Start the two characters 100' apart, and don't allow retreating.
The fighter gets off four arrows, assuming the bear double-moves forward and loses initiative, before the bear charges the fighter and gets to attack at +13 (including the bonus for charging).
Then make your grapple checks: bears get improved grab. The fighter grapples at +9 (+6 BAB, +3 STR); the bear grapples at +16 (+4 BAB, +8 str, +4 size). Almost half the time, the battle will end right here: once the fighter is grappled, he can't use any weapons except ones too small to present a credible threat to the bear. The bear, meanwhile, will continue to do greater than 15 points of damage each round to the poor fighter on average -- this isn't counting criticals.
Given that a bear is, under many circumstances, a better fighter than a sixth-level fighter, how much worse an encounter is a bear accompanied by a sixth-level druid? For starters, the bear can have +2 to each bite and claw attack (from 3 GMF's).
In our experience, the druid character with his animal companions rips more people to shreds than just about any other character in the party. I definitely don't think druids are too weak under the current system.
Daniel
Similar Threads
- Poll
