Xp Problem

victorcrossman

First Post
One of my players made a wizard who made a bomb big enough to destroy a large city. He launched it onto a castle which had 875 bugbears inside we ended the night there and i haven't tried to calculate xp should i give him xp for all of the bugbears?
 

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Well if you give them the EXP, then that encourages them to do it again, so that is kind of your answer there. If you want to reward the player, then give them the full EXP I mean why not. (It might make them out of balanced in treasure VS level though.) You could give them maybe a lump sum based on... well no matter what you base it on it will be your wim more then anything. If you don't give the player EXP, they will likely see it as unfair. After all they did defeat them and they even spent a resource to do it.
 

One of my players made a wizard who made a bomb big enough to destroy a large city.

This implies the wizards ECL is above his character level, since normally the ability to destroy a city is well above the ability of even a 20th level wizard. If the party is armed with nuclear weapons or equivalent, the parties ECL must be adjusted appropriately. I'd suggest adding at least 20 levels to the ECL.

Perhaps you should have considered the implications before introducing explosives into a game, much less nuclear weapons.

He launched it onto a castle which had 875 bugbears inside we ended the night there and i haven't tried to calculate xp should i give him xp for all of the bugbears?

875 bugbears is normally about equivalent to a CR 18 encounter, though in practice for creatures with low CR the suggested practice of increasing CR by two each time you double the number of monsters will generate a CR that is too high for the actual challenge represented just because you can easily wipe out many foes with a single lowish level spell. Leaving that aside and assuming for the moment CR 18 is about right, you should be able to calculate XP based on the effective party level. However, this brings me back to my original point. You've messed with the system by providing the party with equivalent of high tech weapons worth far in assess of their normal wealth by level. As such, the parties effective level is now much higher than their parties character level assuming the party is less than about 40th level. Certainly if the parties average character level is below 20, ECL doesn't reflect their actual capabilities. So basically the rules need to be thrown out the window in the same way you threw balance out of the window.

Long story short, if the party is above 6th level or so, I certainly wouldn't award any XP. If the party is below 6th level, I'm of the opinion you've screwed up your campaign world, but XP might be awarded depending on whether this particular outcome represents an actual creative solution that required overcoming some sort of challenge to set up. I'd suggest 300 XP or less be split up among the PCs that participated in constructing and deploying the weapon. Repeatedly deploying this weapon is obviously not creative and probably unchallenging, and so should not receive XP at all.
 
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The XP formula is very flexible. You can decide how much XP to reward them.

In AD&D (1e), XP was based on headcount (you killed x monsters of this type) and gold.

In 3e, gold doesn't matter any more, and even monster type is not as important. It is more about the encounter challenge. You can also add in story modifiers.

So if this was a challenge, I'd give XP. If it advanced the story, I would give XP. If this was just the equivalent of buying a soda out of a vending machine (or pressing a red button), I'd probably not give XP (although if the soda machine was in a cave in the barrier peaks, I might give XP for traveling to the barrier peaks and overcoming challenges to find it).
 

Don't grant the award for killing the bugbears, because they weren't even fought.

If you're using story awards, then grant the story award for completing the goal (this is usually equal to the XP from one tough encounter). If you're not using story awards, then the reward is that the wizard doesn't have to risk death by entering the castle and fighting the bugbears.
 

Inform him he gets XP for every bugbear he killed.

Put a piece of paper on the table with a great big 0 on it.

Ask him, "You did see the bodies, right?"

Reveal they all sleep in extra dimensional caves created by priests of Gruumush.

Have 875 Bugbears raid their home down from the astral plane.

----

Tell him each bugbear was attacked by the bomb one at a time. Your party launched the bomb as a group. You calculated the bugbears CR 2. The party at CR 19. The XP gained, 0.

Bard sing about the parties' cowardness. His reputation goes in the toilet. Sympathy for bugbears goes on the upswing. People talk about how he Destroys perfectly good castles and murder's babies in their sleep. Have dozens of Female Bugbears become reverents and crawl up out of the smoking rubble to come after him all the while crying tears of bubbling pitch while wailing an unrelenting, yet haunting lament for their dead children. Some still clutch the burnt corpses of their babies to their chest (since they were breast feeding at the time).

Point this out.

Have paladins spit on them as they walk down the street.
Paladins of Illmater.

There's more then one way to discourage a payer from doing stupid things.
 

What's the Wiz level?

How did he create such a bomb? Was it magic? Alchemy? Physics? (If you've followed any of my rules tirades, you know what I think of trying to employ hard physics in a fantasy game where magic exists.)

The game mechanic for the weapon is important, since that may establish the Save DC for the "Burst" effect. (I think a bomb is like, the definition of a "Burst" effect, don't you?) If it's something chemical/alchemical/physics based the Save could be quite low. And, by the rules, creatures with hard cover against a burst can gain Evasion or even Improved Evasion against its effects. Depending on how hard the cover is and how much damage the bomb does, they may not even need a Save. Castle walls tend to be thick, and stone isn't easy to break. Add the fact that most effects do half damage to objects (except when they do quarter), one or two intervening walls might block the blast entirely.

Presuming that it could break through the castle walls, and truly destroy a city, how did he "launch" the bomb? If he was in the same "large city" as the castle, were he and the party in the blast radius?

Are we even certain that the bomb detonated? If it's done with gunpowder or some similar explosive, there probably wasn't any way to test it.

***
A lot of what's being proposed, by me and everyone else, is an open abuse by the DM. You allowed it, you should live with the results.

While a DM can't be "wrong" regarding any given rule interpretation at his or her table, we've all seen DMs make some very bad rulings. Not to jump on you, but in my opinion, allowing such a bomb from less than an Epic level was a bad decision in the first place. Too late now, of course, unless you just want to have their High Priest use a Miracle to turn back time so he can divert the bomb elsewhere.

If it was an Epic level, he could have killed them all by himself anyway. All he did was destroy all of the loot potential of the castle and inflict property damage in the hundreds of thousands of GP. (Look at the rules for building a castle: Those things are expensive)

Note that Bugbears aren't worth any Exp for Epic level characters. If he had encountered them en mass they might have been worth something. Might...
 

As far as the bomb itself goes, this strikes me as the sort of situation where a player with gregarious personality offered a lot of resolution as proposition. That is, the player spent a lot of time, declaring the outcome of his actions as fait accompli with no fortune mechanics at any stage and had a young DM with little experience and unsure how to handle the situation.

The DM declares that the Wizard built a bomb capable of destroying a large city. We can be pretty certain that it was magical, as if it was physical, there would be no way to construct such a weapon.

Let's presume that to destroy a city, at minimum the bomb must have the explosive power of a small nuclear weapon. Let's assume that in this world, by an alchemical process, the PC's develop an explosive akin to TNT. Since a small nuclear weapon has a blasting power of 10,000 tons of TNT. The problem here is obvious. A pile of 10,000 tons of TNT is a cube perhaps 120' on a side, significantly larger than a barn. Even if all the blocks of the material were on hand, it would require days to laboriously construct it, and then, how in the world would it be deployed as a weapon? And the whole time this bomb was being constructed, an enemy with but a tiny cup full of the same explosive could sabotage the whole thing by setting it off prematurely - to say nothing of whether a fireball or similar spell might do the same thing, or at least set it on fire and produce a gigantic bonfire.

If the explosive in question was only gunpowder or the like, then an even more gigantic building is required, and the sabotage is even easier. There is no 'launching' any of these things. You can perhaps drop them on something, but only if you have a flying castle - and if you have a flying castle in the first place, you could always drop _that_ on something anyway.

But the fact that the PC's can now blow up cities is far from the biggest problem the DM has introduced into his campaign. The biggest problem of all is that the DM has now allowed the PC's to violate the heroic basis of the setting. Heroic fantasy settings are invariably based on periods of human history in which defensive military technology overwhelms offensive military technology. In such a setting, a few well equipped and skillful 'heroes' can easily defeat a large number of foes. The earliest such era was the Early Bronze Age, which saw the first appearance of effective armor. Aristocratic warriors capable of affording this advanced armor could easily defeat a dozen or more less well armored and equipped foes, and inspire terror in hundreds of enemies. We see the relics of this age in the romances of Homer, particularly the Illiad and its discussion of early bronze age warfare. Likewise, in the Middle Ages, with the development of steel armor and the stirrup, well equipped aristocratic knights could defeat a dozen or more less skilled foes. A few defenders secure behind castle walls could defeat entire besieging armies numbering many times the number of defenders. From this springs the idea of the mighty hero.

The anti-thesis of this 'heroic' eras are periods in which offensive weaponry begins to overpower defensive weaponry. In such eras, only the leaders, the great captains and commanders can hold in our romantic imaginations, because among the common soldiery, regardless of your skill, some random shot or blast directed by one with far less skill can kill you easily.

So now the PC's have invented the equivalent of a nuclear bomb and used it to irresistibly kill nearly a 1000 enemies by surprise. The campaign is over, the players just haven't realized it yet. For now that the players have done so, nothing prevents their enemies from doing the same to them. The PC's will be sleeping somewhere some day, and then any DM running any sort of realistic campaign will declare: "Well, that's that - TPK. I guess you should all roll up new characters." Cries of disbelief and confusion will abound. How? What? Soon after will follow cries of anger! That's totally unfair? Don't we get a saving throw? Don't we get some warning? And the answer will of course be, "Well, remember how you bombed that castle? It's inhabitants had no warning. It's inhabitants received no saving throw. It's inhabitants just died, remember? And you didn't call that unfair. So why is it unfair that the same thing happened to you?"

The fundamental basis of any RPG with a heroic character is that the PC's are hard to kill. The corollary to this must be, "The NPC's are also hard to kill." If the corollary is not true, then the basis is not true either. Any tactic that the players use to win can be, and must reasonably be, turned against them.
 
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The DM will always win an arms race.

The question is, should he/she?
<slight tangent>
I used to run a super hero game where mundane weapons weren't considered as "powers". Players fellin love with high powered handguns with AP ammo, and head shots. Dead mooks everywhere, in a setting where "dead mooks" was supposed to be a no-no.

On one (and only one) occasion they faced a super powered foe who had brought a L.A.W. rocket to breach an armored bunker. One player had designed his PC in such a way that he had different defenses on different parts of the body, forcing me to use the optional "hit locations" rules any time anyone shot at him. (Royal pain in the tuckus, let me tell you.)

"Heros" charge the bad guy, he turns the AP weapon on them. Random roll to see who he targets, and it's mr. "spot armor". Critical hit is rolled, again right out in front of everyone. Location is rolled, right on the table in front of everyone. Head Shot!

The PC took an AP Rocket to the head, on a critical hit, and not only wasn't killed, he was still conscious and functional. Yet the players screamed that this had been a plan on my part to kill off the PC.

And of course, their next ambition was to gain access to L.A.W. rockets as personal side arms.
</tangent>

When you defeat a munchkin by out-munchkining them (and a city-destroying bomb in D&D is definitely Lollipop Guild worthy), you don't teach them that munchkinry is a problem. In their minds the problem was that they didn't munchkin enough. If only they had made their character even more god-like, they would have survived...

Far better to just say "No", loudly and repeatedly, when the players start looking for that yellow brick road.

In our current case, however, it's far too late. It's been allowed and short of a DMs-ex-machina there's no way to undo that.

Want a solution? One that really does justice to the situation?

Declare that the players have "Won" at D&D. What would they like to play next?

If they protest, saying that they still want to play D&D, tell them their old characters are now NPCs, hated and feared by the whole world because they destroyed not only a castle of enemies but the entire "large city" around it, full of innocent people. They should make new characters and start over. The long term goal? To bring down the "Dark Lords", of course. First adventure? To explore the ruins of a blasted city, to prevent anyone else from ever learning the secret of the dark weaponry used to raze it.

Oh, and when they decide to munchkin again? Say no, early and often.
 

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