[XPH] Updated Mind Thief

[Michael Tree]

Are the psychic warrior's offensive powers really worth so little? I've taken a huge axe to the powers list, so these guys aren't going to be hitting nearly as hard (or as often). Thus, I think that the Feats are integral to the class -- that's where a significant portion of their combat ability is going to come from.

Not their sneak attack? This class seems more or less equivalent to the bard - not as good at party support, but actually better in combat because of their sneak attacks. Why do they need feats on top of that?

What's wrong with letting people choose these feats for themselves?.

It's much more powerful than giving set feats, because characters can aim for powerful feat combinations and get good combos earlier. If you must have feats, why not give a choice from a menu, like the Monk's 1,2,&6 feats, or the Ranger's fighting styles.

You're probably right about Deep Impact. It was just a feat that came to mind. Giving Speed of Thought would be appropriate though.

Whaaaa? Give them a STRONGER key stat? I thought you were trying to tone them down from being "overpowered"...

Giving 4 skill points with Int as a stat is probably weaker than giving 6 skill points with Wis. I dunno. It was just an offhand thought.

Again, don't compare them to "Rogue -2", compare them to Bards. They need Concentration & Psicraft, and probably tempted by Autohypnosis, so they've effectively got 4 skill points left.

I am comparing them to Bards. Their skills and powers/spells are more or less equivalent. The bard gets bardic music and lore, and the mind thief gets sneak attack and evasion. That sounds like a fair trade-off, if not actually better for the mind thief. The only thing Bards get better is good will saves, and perhaps a more diverse set of powers (unclear, because of augmentation).

That was my first thought, but I couldn't decide if they should be forced to expend their focus before or after they find out if they've missed the roll, and if after, if they get to know how much damage they would otherwise take. It's easier mechanically to have players expend focus in more discrete situations.

I would say after failing a save, but before they know the damage inflicted. Are you sure this class needs improved evasion? Only the monk gets it as a default, and they're much more "bouncy", for lack of a better word. Rogues can get it, but they have other choices too.

I would consider moving Improved Psi Evasion into a Feat... but of course then it's important that they keep the bonus feats.

lol. I think you've convinced me a bit, but I still think the current progression is too much. What if they get bonus feats at 5, 10, 15, and 20, and maybe choose them from a menu like the monk's or like the rogue's abilties, not like PsiWarrior and fighter feats?

Just your vision. They've got Trapfinding. I don't think that giving them extra weapon proficencies would cure their "overpowered"-ness.

Whoops. :\ Is there a reason why you didn't put it in the chart?
I suggested the rogue's weapon list for flavor reasons. They have a similar role as rogues - a stealthy sneak-attacking maneuverable bugger - and it just makes sense to me that they'd be proficient in saps, hand crossbows, short swords, and the like.

A clearer way to say it is: "Like a Psychic Warrior, a Mind Thief gains only Bonus Power Points at 1st level." Make sense now?

Ah, yes, that's much different!

I hope I don't come across as being too critical. I like your ideas a lot, but IMO they're not perfect, and I'm a tinkerer at heart.

 

[Michael Tree]

Please read the power list!
1) They get wall walker (psi spider climb).
2) They get many powers (esp. Nomad powers) at lower level.

BTW, these "power-up" suggestions are still counter to your claim that it's an overpowered class.

Whoops. I've only read about half the XPH powers so far, so I'm not all that familiar with them (especially nomad powers, which don't especially interest me).

I was making suggestions both for flavor and balance. I just wasn't very clear about what suggestion was for what.

 

[Nifft]

Giving 4 skill points with Int as a stat is probably weaker than giving 6 skill points with Wis. I dunno. It was just an offhand thought.

Thanks for trying, but seriously -- go look at a Wizard or a Psion's expected number of skill points.

I am comparing them to Bards. Their skills and powers/spells are more or less equivalent. The bard gets bardic music and lore, and the mind thief gets sneak attack and evasion. That sounds like a fair trade-off, if not actually better for the mind thief. The only thing Bards get better is good will saves, and perhaps a more diverse set of powers (unclear, because of augmentation).

If the Mind Thief got full sneak attack or evasion, I might agree. However, they get a weaker, watered down version of both.

Bards get some of the best buffs in the game, both personal and group. Their Bardic Music is among the best buffs available, and they can cast or fight while maintaining it. Bardic Music is powerful stuff, and Will saves are pretty darn useful for people running around in a Psionic world. In contrast, the Mind Thief gets only personal buffs.

maybe choose them from a menu like the monk's or like the rogue's abilties, not like PsiWarrior and fighter feats?

DUDE! This is getting annoying. Go back and actually read the whole write-up, please. They choose their Feats from a more limited list than Fighters or Psychic Warriors. The Feats they get to pick from are more of the Dodge -> Mobility -> Spring Attack type than of the Power Attack -> Cleave -> Sunder type, so it does serve to enforce their role as a specialist, not a main combatant.

Changing their Bonus Feat levels to 5, 10, 15, 20 (instead of 5, 8, 12, 16, 20) only reduces the number by one. It's certainly viable. Consider that Rogues get their Special Abilities at 10, 13, 16 and 19, though -- that's 4.

I'd rather move Improved Psi Evasion into a [Psionic] Feat, thus emulating the Rogue's Improved Evasion, than reduce their Bonus Feats too much. These guys might actually use a Feat to take Martial Weapon Prof (Bows)!

Whoops. :\ Is there a reason why you didn't put it in the chart?

It's an error on my part. Thanks for catching it.

I suggested the rogue's weapon list for flavor reasons.

I think that would make them too strong. If the PC wants those weapons, he can take a level of Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger or Fighter. To me, this is a balancing factor that makes them weaker, and therefore is a good thing. It also fits their flavor better -- they're not intended to be as strong in combat as Rogues, so their weapon list and Sneak Attack progression are worse. If they were as good at combat as Rogues, I'd agree that they were overpowered.

I hope I don't come across as being too critical. I like your ideas a lot, but IMO they're not perfect, and I'm a tinkerer at heart.

No worries, I invite critique by posting my stuff here. I do wish that you'd double-check your suggestions, because it's frustrating to type basic stuff more than once. It really hurts your case when it's clear that you don't fully understand the thing in question.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Michael Tree]

Thanks for trying, but seriously -- go look at a Wizard or a Psion's expected number of skill points.

I officially withdraw that suggestion as poorly thought out

If the Mind Thief got full sneak attack or evasion, I might agree. However, they get a weaker, watered down version of both.

It's not that much watered down. Compared to a rogue, they lose only 3 sneak attack dice over 20 levels, and gain psionic powers and access to psionic feats to compensate.

Bardic music may be nice, but sneak attack is even nicer for sheer combat ability.

I'd rather move Improved Psi Evasion into a [Psionic] Feat, thus emulating the Rogue's Improved Evasion, than reduce their Bonus Feats too much. These guys might actually use a Feat to take Martial Weapon Prof (Bows)!

I definitely think making Improved Psi Evasion a [Psionic] feat instead of a class ability is a good idea.

I just noticed that 3.5 Rogues aren't proficient with saps. Bizarre! Okay, simple weapons sounds good to me.

DUDE! This is getting annoying. Go back and actually read the whole write-up, please.

I did, several times. Their list may be smaller than the fighter's but it's still huge! It has all psionic feats, all metapsionic feats, the entire combat expertise chain, the entire dodge chain, the entire ranged combat chain, and several other good feats besides!

Getting bonus feats from a power chain is a large benefit, because then they can gain the powerful feats at the top of the chain much more quickly.

If you trimmed the list to remove the combat chain feats (ie. the dodge chain, the ranged weapon chain, the expertise chain, and combat reflexes), but retain weapon finesse, quick draw, improved initiative, run, and the psionic feats (including Improved Psi Evasion as a feat), it would be much better.

It also fits their flavor better -- they're not intended to be as strong in combat as Rogues, so their weapon list and Sneak Attack progression are worse. If they were as good at combat as Rogues, I'd agree that they were overpowered.

That's the thing. They can be as good at combat as Rogues, if not better. Their sneak attack progression is slower, and they don't have uncanny dodge, but they do have lots of bonus feats, access to psionic feats, and numerous powers, many of which are very good in combat.

 

[Nifft]

Compared to a rogue, they lose only 3 sneak attack dice over 20 levels, and gain psionic powers and access to psionic feats to compensate.

Exactly! To compensate. So glad you agree.

Their list may be smaller than the fighter's but it's still huge! It has all psionic feats, all metapsionic feats, the entire combat expertise chain, the entire dodge chain, the entire ranged combat chain, and several other good feats besides!

Remember that many Metapsionic Feats are going to be useless to them -- what's the point of Empower or Maxamize when you have no damaging effects?

I'd rather cut some of the [Psionic] feats than the specific [General] feats that I've enumerated. If you can think of any specific ones that are "too powerful", or against the flavor, please let us know.

If you trimmed the list to remove the combat chain feats (ie. the dodge chain, the ranged weapon chain, the expertise chain, and combat reflexes), but retain weapon finesse, quick draw, improved initiative, run, and the psionic feats

I disagree. I think that a skill monkey (Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Mind Thief) should be able to do some combat tricks. Spring Attack is a good chain, as are the ranged attack feats, and neither is overpowered. (Especially not compared to two-handed Power Attack + True Strike, or Blink + Sneak Attack. Those are the "gold standard".)

That's the thing. They can be as good at combat as Rogues, if not better. Their sneak attack progression is slower, and they don't have uncanny dodge, but they do have lots of bonus feats, access to psionic feats, and numerous powers, many of which are very good in combat.

Exactly! They're intended to use the bonus feats & powers to be useful in combat, as opposed to relying only on Sneak Attack and Tumble (and high-level Rogue Special Abilities).

The Mind Rogue should be exactly as good as a Rogue. And as good as a Bard. And as good as a Ranger. And as good as a Sorcerer. That's balance.

-- N

 

[Michael Tree]

Exactly! To compensate. So glad you agree.

Waitaminute...

I'd rather cut some of the [Psionic] feats than the specific [General] feats that I've enumerated. If you can think of any specific ones that are "too powerful", or against the flavor, please let us know.

I don't think the psionic feats are the problem. It's the mundane fighting feats that are too good.

I think that a skill monkey (Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Mind Thief) should be able to do some combat tricks.

So do I, and that's why characters get level feats. Did you notice that none of the classes you just mentioned get bonus feats from a big list, or from the expertise, dodge, or ranged combat chains? No one gets big lists of combat bonus feats except the fighter and psychic warrior.

Exactly! They're intended to use the bonus feats & powers to be useful in combat, as opposed to relying only on Sneak Attack and Tumble (and high-level Rogue Special Abilities).

But what if their bonus feats and powers and sneak attacks together are more powerful than "only on Sneak Attack and Tumble (and high-level Rogue Special Abilities)." I strongly suspect that's the case.

 

[Piratecat]

No one's being snippy any more, right? Right.

Nifft, go play one of these darn things so you can find the hidden advantages and weaknesses.

 

[Nifft]

So do I, and that's why characters get level feats. Did you notice that none of the classes you just mentioned get bonus feats from a big list, or from the expertise, dodge, or ranged combat chains? No one gets big lists of combat bonus feats except the fighter and psychic warrior.

Rogue special abilities can be turned in for any feat, combat or not. Rogues get 4 of them. Monks get 4 choice feats before 6th level, and Rangers get 5 by 11th level.

If you want to narrow down the list, that might be useful. You should remember that this class is a variant Psychic Warrior, a specialized PsiRogue. Psions get bonus feats, Psychic Warriors get bonus feats, and Rogues get bonus feats at high level. Accept the fact that this class is going to get bonus feats.

But what if their bonus feats and powers and sneak attacks together are more powerful than "only on Sneak Attack and Tumble (and high-level Rogue Special Abilities)." I strongly suspect that's the case.

Then the Rogue will just have to rely on his superior skills (he'll probably have the skill points to Feint, and he'll certainly be a good Tumbler), better stats (since he didn't need to boost his Wisdom), better class abilities (including Uncanny Dodge and Opportunist) and every magic item he could scrounge (and Use Magic Device).

Have no pity for the Rogue. He's just fine. He even has access to a wide array of "powers"... and they're less limited than those allowed to this class. A Rogue can fire a Wand of Fireballs, while this class has no direct-damage powers on its list. And the skill point situation makes it unlikely that every Mind Thief will have Use Psionic Device, as opposed to Rogues, who genuinely have that skill as an opportunity.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

Nifft, go play one of these darn things so you can find the hidden advantages and weaknesses.

Yes, cap'n kitty! Right away, sir!

-- N, wondering what he'll have to do to get a player to take this class