YASV (Yet Another Sorcerer Variant)

Kae'Yoss

First Post
Since it seems to be fashion to change the Sorcerer base class (and a little because it hasn't got the right feel about it), I, too came up with a variant.

At first, some general thoughts:
Magic is a refined art. At leas for wizards: they read ancient tomes by the dozen - often simultaneously, crossreferring - put more thought into making their spellbook than into their homes, and, most importantly, spend a lot of time learning the old, traditional way to cast these spells: what exact incantations are needed for the spell, what arcane symbols must be traced, what materials used.
But a sorcerer doesn't do any of these things. His components clearly aren't the same as the ones wizars use. If it were so, sorcerers would discover their powers under trial-and-error (or under the influence of illegal substances), making words up they've never heard anyone use until they come up with stuff like "igna morits" and that they have to whirl their hands around in a certain pattern in order to have an effect.
No, a sorcerer's verbal and somantic components tend to be more simple and individual, and are more a focus for their inner power (like the war cry, or the kiai of a martial arts expert. It won't give you more power from any outside source, but it will help you channel yours).
So any spellcraft checks to find out what a sorcerer is casting have a flat -2 penalty. (This even applies to a sorcerer who observes another sorcerer, since their gestures aren't the same. It won't affect a sorcerer trying to figure out what the wizard does, since they use the same gestures and words as any wizard anywhere)


Now to the Sorcerer:

Class Skills: Add Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate.

Isn't it odd that Sorcerers have not a single class skill based on their primary ability score?

Skill Points at every Level: 4+ instead of 2+

Thats because they're more the adventurous type. Also, wizards tend to have much more skill points than sorcerers do, since they have high Int, but the average sorcerer only has Int 12 or 13.

Spellcasting: As told before, their V and S components are more individual than wizards. Also, they need (and may) not use any material components (costly M components must be paid with XP, at a rate of 1 XP per 25 gp). Focuses may be used, and if not, they cost 1XP for every 100gp, but that must be paid every casting.

Material Components make no sense for Sorcerers, but Focuses make at least limited sense, since they usually relate to the spell in some symbolic matter.

Class Features: Spells per Day and Spells known remain as they are, as do Saves, Proficiencies, HD, and BAB.
They don't gain Summon Familiar at first level (but see below)

at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level, they gain an Arcane Power, chosen from the list below.
Summon Familiar: Works as usual, except that if you take that at a later level, your effective level for determining familiar abilities is lower: When first gaining this power, you have a "1st-level" Familiar. With every other sorcerer level you gain, this increases. So if you take Summon Familiar at 5th-level, it'll have the same powers as a Wizard 1's familiar, and at 10th-level it will be as a Wizard 6's. It still has half your HD total, of course.
Spell Secret As seen with the Wu Jen: You can either change one of your spells with a 1-lv Metamagic feat (like still spell), without change to effective spell level or casting time, or you can do the same with two 0-lv Metamagic feats (either to the same spell or two different ones).
This ability can be chosen several times, chosen either the same spell or spells or different ones.
Magic Focus: Choose one Descriptor, like [Evil], [Darkness], or [Fire]. You gain +1 Caster Level (just like a cleric with the Good domain with [Good] spells).
This ability can be chosen several times. It doesn't stack (so no [Evil][Fire] Spell with +2 Caster Level)
Redecision: "Forget" (Cha bonus) Spell levels and choose new ones.
Mimic Spell: (you must be at least 10th-level to be able to choose this) If someone you can see and who's within 60 ft of you casts a spell, make a Spellcraft Check (DC 20 + Effective Spell Level). If you succeed, if the spell is on your list and it's level is one lower than the highest-level spell you know, memorize that spell. (You must decide whether to do this before the end of your next turn, or you forget what you saw and heard).
You now "forget" one spell of one level above the mimiced spell's actual level and be able to cast the spell for the next 24 hours.
You must _exactly_ mimic that spell, that means you use exactly the same components (their words, their gestures, and even material components or focuses, if they use it). Also, you cast it with the same options (if the spell has some: fire shield or shadow evocation are good examples, as are the summon monster spells.) and it's modified by the same metamagic feats (you don't have to know them).
Casting a mimiced spell uses up a spell slot at least one level higher than it's effective level. it's duration changes as if you cast a metamagiced spell spontaneously, and you cannot further change it via metamagic.
After 24 hours, the spell fades from your memory, bringing back the old one. If you want to keep the spell, you must make another spellcraft check, with the old DC +1. For every additional day, this further increases by +1. You cannot take 10 on that check. You can have no more than one mimiced spell active.
Armored Casting: You gain Armor Proficiency (light) and your arcane spell failure decreases by 5 per cent. This does not work with a mimiced spell.

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I'm not sure if the Armor Proficiency with Armored Casting is appropriate, or if I make it 10 %. The Idea behind that special ability is that sorcerers' gestures tend to me far simpler than wizards' (as explained above).

The mimic spell idea is from Return of the Archwizards, where Galaeron (my favourite depiction of the Sorcerer class, but I repear myself :) ) does that all the time.


You could also create epic feats (or maybe even regular ones) to increase these powers:
Additional Mimic Spell: Another Mimiced Spell per day.
Metamagic Mimic Spell: You can alter Mimiced Spells with Metamagic (note that it's duration is at least two full rounds then!)
Improved Armored Casting: 10 (or 15, maybe even 20) per cent less arcane spell failure (and maybe throw armor proficency (medium) in)
Improved Magic Focus: You gain Spell Focus and Spell Penetration with every spell that is affected by your Magic Focus.
Epic Spell Secret: You either effect one spell you know with a Metamagic feat that with effective spell level +2, two with effective spell level +1, or three with effective spell level +0.


Comments, Ideas and Suggestions are welcome.

[Edit] Made the Arcane Powers Bold instead of Italic, for readability's sake.
 
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hey KaeYoss!

1) spell secret - you may want to mention that it permanently affects the spell chosen (for those without OA)

2) magic focus - wouldn't two alignment decriptors stack for summoning spells (Chaotic and Good when summoning a CG creature)? or are you saying, no matter what - only one can apply to any given spellcasting?

3) redecision - this is 'replace a number (equal to Cha bonus) of known spells with new ones', right?

btw, i don't think this is too powerful, when you consider some of the other sorc variants out there
 

Crothian said:
I think you're giving them too much while taking nothing away.


After all, they should be somewhat equal to the wizard.
Sorcerers have flexibility with the spells they cast, but wizards have fexibility with the spells they know (I think it's equal)
Sorcerers have more spells per day, but Wizards get spell levels earlier. Combined with the bonus spell slots a specialist gains they're almost par)
wizards tend to have much more skill points than sorcerers, due to their high int score. Also, they make more out of their class skills, since many of the wizard's class skills are Int based, but none of the sorcerer's are Cha based.
wizards can specialize (although this also gives disadvantages)
wizards gain scribe scroll for free, and gain 4 free feats over time. they have a unique feat (spell mastery) and don't need to worry about casting time when they use metamagic feats. Sorcerers gain nothing in that department (the casting time increase puts the sorcerers at a disadvantage, since they could not cast two metamagiced spells while hasted, a wizard can. Consider Energy Substitution (Sonic) and a fight against a Dragon.

They lack the bonus feats the wizard gets. Also, the class is not right as it is, and lacks in the individualization department.

Your suggestion? What could I take away? What could I take out of the changes above?
 

KaeYoss said:



After all, they should be somewhat equal to the wizard.
Sorcerers have flexibility with the spells they cast, but wizards have fexibility with the spells they know (I think it's equal)
Sorcerers have more spells per day, but Wizards get spell levels earlier. Combined with the bonus spell slots a specialist gains they're almost par)
wizards tend to have much more skill points than sorcerers, due to their high int score. Also, they make more out of their class skills, since many of the wizard's class skills are Int based, but none of the sorcerer's are Cha based.
wizards can specialize (although this also gives disadvantages)
wizards gain scribe scroll for free, and gain 4 free feats over time. they have a unique feat (spell mastery) and don't need to worry about casting time when they use metamagic feats. Sorcerers gain nothing in that department (the casting time increase puts the sorcerers at a disadvantage, since they could not cast two metamagiced spells while hasted, a wizard can. Consider Energy Substitution (Sonic) and a fight against a Dragon.

They lack the bonus feats the wizard gets. Also, the class is not right as it is, and lacks in the individualization department.

Your suggestion? What could I take away? What could I take out of the changes above?

So, you believe that the Sorcerer in the PHB is too weak. I don't see that. The versatility of a Sorcerer is way better then a few extra feats. In my games the ability of the Sorcerer and to a lesser extend the Bard to aplly meta magic feats on the fly was one of the best abilities.

To weaken thing, I really like what Monte did by taking a few spells and eith er making them one level higher or getting rid of them. Sorcerers don't need a big spell list since they get so few spells.

I like the additions you've made, so I really don't think you should change any of them. I understand the Sorcerer has so little to take away, it makes it tough to balance.
 

Mr Fidgit said:
hey KaeYoss!

1) spell secret - you may want to mention that it permanently affects the spell chosen (for those without OA)

Yea. I have a draft (handscribed on actual paper) that's more precise on that, but I used the short version here.

2) magic focus - wouldn't two alignment decriptors stack for summoning spells (Chaotic and Good when summoning a CG creature)? or are you saying, no matter what - only one can apply to any given spellcasting?

AFAIK two descriptors won't stack: in the stat blocks it always says something like "caster level 15th, 16th for good or chaotic spells". I meant it the sama way: if you have both [Chaos] and [Good], you still get only +1 if you use a CG spell.

3) redecision - this is 'replace a number (equal to Cha bonus) of known spells with new ones', right?

Nope. Say you have Cha 16 (+3). You then could either replace 3 1st-level spells, one 3rd-level spell, or one 2nd and one 1st. I forgot about 0-level: Either I change it to the popular 1/2level, or you can completely change all your 0-level spells for free with the ability, for all I care.

I think it's to much the other way. But I think I'll change it if enough people think it's better with spells = cha rather than spells with total levels = cha mod. Again, it's clearer in the drafted version

btw, i don't think this is too powerful, when you consider some of the other sorc variants out there

Thanks. :)

But I want to make it balanced by itself, not just compared to other variants. (which well could be the case...)
 

Crothian said:



To weaken thing, I really like what Monte did by taking a few spells and eith er making them one level higher or getting rid of them. Sorcerers don't need a big spell list since they get so few spells.


I considered that (maybe even "borrowing" monte's list), but I don't like to think of all the additional spells in all the books, and that I had to review them all before using them (it's for personal use, after all, and I use many of the additional books, including Magic of Faerûn).

I like the additions you've made, so I really don't think you should change any of them. I understand the Sorcerer has so little to take away, it makes it tough to balance.

Thanks to you, too. I'm going to think about something to balance it (if everything else fails, I have to go the way monte did - unless I can convict my DM that it's OK as it is. Where was that Rod of Epic Splendor...;))

I'm open to any suggestions on balancing.
 

KaeYoss said:
(costly M components must be paid with XP, at a rate of 1 XP per 25 gp). Focuses may be used, and if not, they cost 1XP for every 100gp, but that must be paid every casting.

the only other thing that concerns me: identify for 4 exp, and even contingency or shapechange for 15 exp, these ratios aren't really a penalty or drawback (especially the latter two, what's 15 exp to a 20th level character?) i'm not really sure of a good way to change this, though.


and i understand Crothian's concerns, but there's nothing here i find too unbalancing (except what's above). an arcane power once every 5 levels isn't that bad when you consider: summon familiar is de-powered if taken later than first level; redecision can't affect high level spells at all (unless you have a REALLY high Cha); spell secret only affects one spell; etc.

and if you pop back in on this thread...i've been able to figure out what most forum abbreviations stand for, but what is AFAIK?
 
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My pov

Ok, my thing is, yes the sorceror is balanced as written in phb. Money not spent on scribing spells gets to be spent on more magical goodies, lack of item creation feats means more exp. On the whole they are quite balalnced.

However, they are too copy-cat. I don't think giving them more powers is necessarily the answer, although I agree they could use a couple more. The biggest problem (which apparantly monte cook has seen, I have not seen his rendition) is the spell list. It deserves to be different from the wizards list.

Also, I think 1 or 2 sorc specific feats wouldn't hurt, and while the feats shouldnt be more powerful than metamagic or item creation feats currently existing, they should have some way to interact with a lot of existing things. For instance, on another thread I bring up "Enhance Magic Item". Basically you can add enhancements to any magical item, at -10% the cost. No, the sorceror can't make any item from scratch with this feat, but with the wizards aid, or just one of the feats, he can be a very effective item-maker (enhancer).

The problem is trying to come up with a feat that emulates that ability for metamagics. Sorcerors do not have the feats to buy as many metamagic feats as the wizard does. I don' t think thats a problem. Rather, he should have some way of emulating this arcane power, in a more broad sense.

Also, when it comes to things like familiar, I think this is one spot the wizard should have gotten penalized. Give the familiar to the sorc for free, make the wizard pay a feat. I imagine a lot of wizards with toads will suddenly be without, as they would rather have their precious spell-casting prodigy, spell foci, etc. But I find it hard to imagine a sorceror without a little friend to enjoy the magic ;)

I also think sorcerors' should have a choice of cha-related skills, not just arbitrarily be given a few. Sorcerors strike me as the most diverse and individual of the base classes, they should not all start with the same skill list, just as all bards don't start with the same weapon list.

Technik
 

Re: Re: YASV (Yet Another Sorcerer Variant)

Mr Fidgit said:
the only other thing that concerns me: identify for 4 exp, and even contingency or shapechange for 15 exp, these ratios aren't really a penalty or drawback (especially the latter two, what's 15 exp to a 20th level character?) i'm not really sure of a good way to change this, though.

What's 1500gp for a 20th-level character (especially if they only need to pay it twice)?

the 1/25 comes straight from Monte Cook's variant (and is derived from magic Item Creation, where you pay 1/25 of the Market price). The 1/100 for focuses is 1/4 of the price you pay for material components. With the 5th casting (and wizards tend to cast their spells really often) you will be better off with the focus, since you only pay that once

and i understand Crothian's concerns, but there's nothing here i find too unbalancing (except what's above). an arcane power once every 5 levels isn't that bad when you consider: summon familiar is de-powered if taken later than first level; redecision can't affect high level spells at all (unless you have a REALLY high Cha); spell secret only affects one spell; etc.

Or two, if you take 0-lv stuff.

About Cha bonus and spell levels: first, they usually want to change spells they no longer need, because they have better ones, and that's lower-level spells mostly. Also, following the DMG - guidelines of character wealth, you can achieve quite high ability scores with magic items - assuming they're commonly available - and with ability increases - assuming you put them into cha.

some rough calculations.
1th level - 16 (we can assume that every character has enough luck to gain at least one 16, puts it on cha and choses a race without CHA penalty)
5th level - 19 (+2 Cloak of charisma +2, +1 increase)
10th level - 22 (+2 Cloak of charisma +4, +1 increase)
15th level - 25 (+3 Cloak of charisma +6, +1 increase)
16th level - 28 (+2 increase, +1 wish/ manual)

That means at 5th level, you can change 4 spell levels, at 10th 6, at 15 7, at 20th 9.

and if you pop back in on this thread...i've been able to figure out what most forum abbreviations stand for, but what is AFAIK?

as far as I know.
 

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