Yeenoghu writeup

[Wolf72]

[from reading WotC boards] ... are the Demon Lords presented meant to be aspects/avatars? ... if so that could change things a bit.

 

[Land Outcast]

James Jacobs said that was his intent, but that it didn't make it -explicitly- to the book.

 

[3d6]

For what it's worth, Yeenoghu has much better hit points, better saving throws, better damage reduction, a much better Armor Class, and deals better damage than a balor. He wields a better weapon, too. In a fight, Yeenoghu would beat the crap out of a balor. The just happen to have the same CR for some reason.

 

[James Jacobs]

For what it's worth, Yeenoghu has much better hit points, better saving throws, better damage reduction, a much better Armor Class, and deals better damage than a balor. He wields a better weapon, too. In a fight, Yeenoghu would beat the crap out of a balor. The just happen to have the same CR for some reason.

The balor is actually a bit weak for a CR 20 creature, as it turns out. And Yeenoghu's probably a bit tough for CR 20, although given what a high level party can do, I think Yeenoghu's more accurate at CR 20. Modeling high-level monsters into CR niches is something that's kind of been elusive, since the vast majority of initial playtests were for lower level. And in any case, there's so many save-or-die effects in the game by that point, CR really starts to become kind of meaningless except as a way to measure a monster's raw combat stats (hit points, armor class, attack rolls, saves, and average damage).

 

[Wolf72]

James Jacobs said that was his intent, but that it didn't make it -explicitly- to the book.

[shakes paw in air]EDITORS!!!![/shakes paw in air]

 

[gizmo33]

So do you have any ideas of why Yeenoghu would have opportunities that balors - with their greater ability - don't have? You're speaking in vague generalities,

I don't see what you mean about vague generality, possible examples are trivial to dream up - the actual ones would depend on your campaign design (or that of Planescape or whatever framework you are using). For example, Yeenoghu might have been around 10,000 years before the Balor, giving him time to establish a dominant political position on his layer of the Abyss. The Balor could be kept busy by whatever creature/organization makes them the "pan-Abyssal" generals of the bloodwar. Etc. etc. Really, I don't see how this is going to help if your only reality is the stat-block. Use whatever historical events (or lack thereof) that you want. You'd have to believe in circumstance modifiers to find this believable and I from what I can tell you don't.

Your argument depends on flavor text, which makes it fundamentally unworkable, since there's abundant flavor text supporting the idea that balors have alliances with mariliths and nalfeshnee.

I have repeatedly said in my posts that I based what I said on little official material. If you're trying to make something work for Planescape or your homebrew or whatever, then what's the big deal?

It also assumes that the only nonunique demons that rival Yeenoghu in strength and exceed his puny diplomacy ranks have alien, lawful natures, which is a stretch at best when you're talking specifically about balors and ridiculous when you consider the Abyss as a whole.

"Ridiculous"? Maybe you need a thesaurus. You've already said what I've said is silly. It's insulting and it's a waste of time.

The idea of a balor's lawfulness, as I already said, is something that comes from the 1st edition monster manual. I don't know what you mean by "stretch" - you're writing as if there is some sort of official material that you're following, but I can't tell what it is.

The notion that balors are so lawful that they drive the other demons away from them is viscerally unpleasant, reducing what is intended to be the ultimate demonic species to something foreign to their own plane. It's almost as bad as the notion of evil-tainted death slaadi, which is another setting-destroying idiocy.

"Idiocy" - seriously - get a thesaurus. What you're saying can be interesting without recourse to insulting hyperbole. Given that you find anything about Dungeons and Dragons "vicerally unpleasant", I think it was a waste of my time to try to "reason" with you on this issue. I'm sorry that Yeenoghu's CR rating is so upsetting.

 

[JustaPlayer]

I'm just gonna have an advanced demonic flumph kill pethetic Yeenoghu off. Long live "The Flumph", Demon Lord of Gnolls and Flumph!

 

[Land Outcast]

Lafwul balors???

 

[gizmo33]

Lafwul balors???

1st Edition Monster Manual ???

 

[Ripzerai]

You'd have to believe in circumstance modifiers to find this believable and I from what I can tell you don't.

I believe in circumstance modifiers. But you need to come up with plausible circumstances, not just wave vaguely at the concept.

Politics shift and change, in the Abyss more than anywhere. If host of charismatic new leaders arrives (not just balors, but mariliths and nalfeshnee are all better politicians than Yeenoghu), the 10,000 year old system of lords is going to fall. Unless he's so powerful that he doesn't need any allies.

Maybe you need a thesaurus.

Interesting comment. While I'd deeply love to debate my use of synonyms with you (which is flawless, incidently), perhaps it's not very relevant in this particular thread.

The idea of a balor's lawfulness, as I already said, is something that comes from the 1st edition monster manual.

The 1e MM says they're chaotic evil and charismatic leaders. The 3e MM says they're chaotic evil, and the generals of demonic armies. If you're claiming they're so orderly that other demons won't follow them, that's not just a stretch - it's an outright contradiction. And a grasping at straws.

You know as well as I do that there are no reasonable circumstance modifiers that will make up for the titanic gulf between the political ability of Yeenoghu and a balor or marilith.

insulting hyperbole.

I'm not insulting you, dude. But I know you can't believe what you're saying any more than I do.

I don't know why it's fun for some people to spend time trying to make up excuses for obvious flaws in the rules. If you want Yeenoghu to be a better politician than balors, give him more ranks in Diplomacy - it's that simple. Changing balors from a race of demonic leaders and generals who, according to the 1e MM, try to seize control whenever possible, to a race of pariahs or functionaries - for no reason I can see than for the sake of defending some random statblock that you could fairly easily change - is silly (wacky, zany, bizarre, confounding), and it's neither hyperbolic nor particularly insulting to say so.