Yet another confused grapple thread

[juliaromero]

Can someone explain to me how you fiigure out monster grapple checks (ones that normally use natural weapons)? As in how many they get.

Is it suddenly based on BAB?

If so, does that mean as soon as they start making grapple checks they can't use any natural weapon attacks?

And, worse yet, how do you deal with a monster that has taken the -20 check to hold someone with say only their mouth and is free to attack normally with other natural attacks. Does this creature get all its other natural attacks, then 1 grapple check with the mouth to do damage, or can it do more grapple checks with the mouth based on BAB? Or what? It's all very confusing with monsters.

 

[juliaromero]

Bump?

Oh, and one more related question. If a creature takes the -20 to grapple with one body part and succedes, it says it can do damage with that body part with future grapple checks. Are these also at -20?

 

[Thanee]

Monsters have to use BAB for grapple checks just like anyone else. The round after the grapple starts, they "switch" from natural attack routine to BAB attacks.

They can still do natural weapon attacks (with one natural weapon), but only by using the Attack Your Opponent special grapple action (attacking at -4).

When using the Damage Your Opponent special grapple action, their damage is based on their unarmed damage, not their natural weapon damage.

When a monster grapples with the -20 modifier, so it's not considered grappling for anyone else, I'd say, it can choose to either use BAB and make grapple checks on the grappled victim (well, opponent, but if you can hold him or her with -20...) OR us natural attack routine (might be reasonable to leave out the attack that was used to grapple and most certainly is used to hold the victim) on anyone except the victim. That's at least how I'd do that intuitively.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus]

Two part question...

If a Monk takes Weapon Finesse, can he apply it to his unarmed attacks?

If the Monk attepts a grapple OR tries to break away from one, can he use his BAB + Dex modifier for the attempt?

 

[Thanee]

1) Yes.
2) No.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus]

2) No.

But isn't the grapple check considered a melee attack?

 

[Trainz]

I personally would.

Anything else just doesn't make sense, whatever the RAW says. That is, if he has Weapon Finesse.

 

[dcollins]

But isn't the grapple check considered a melee attack?

Technically, the legitimate feat selection is Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike). However, "unarmed strike" is not the same attack option as "grapple", and the bonus isn't applicable there (you've got the Improved Grapple feat for that, from someplace).

 

[RigaMortus]

Technically, the legitimate feat selection is Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike).

In 3.5 it is just Weapon Finesse, and it applies to all light weapons (plus a few special ones such as Spiked Chain and Rapier). You do not need to specify a weapon that it applies to.

And since unarmed strikes are considered light weapons, Weapon Finesse should apply.

However, "unarmed strike" is not the same attack option as "grapple", and the bonus isn't applicable there (you've got the Improved Grapple feat for that, from someplace).

"unarmed strike" is not an attack option at all. I think it would be considered a weapon, just as a rapier or dagger is.

Can I take Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)? What about Weapon Focus (Grapple)? What about Weapon Focus (Trip)?

 

[Thanee]

But isn't the grapple check considered a melee attack?

No. The attack to initiate the grapple is an (unarmed) melee attack.

The grapple check itself is its own class of roll.

Bye
Thanee