(Yet another) Paladin behaviour question

[Ridley's Cohort]

Good points, Umbran.

Trial by combat would certainly be favored by a lawful god of retribution. I am not sure what the point of such a god having paladins if they don't do exactly this sort of thing.

It is not clear to me that the paladin lied. Deceiving by omission is not necessarily a breach of the Code.

The only thing that gives me pause is the deception. That is always a touchy thing when paladins do it. Hey, I have used deception by omission when playing a paladin. It is definitely like playing with fire, though.

 

[Westwind]

The Paladin never directly lied, although he was clearly not forthcoming with all information. Having played a lot of Vampire, we've all gotten good at being evasive when we get dominated. He never actually stated "I am here to hire you for a campaign." Setting up a tent in the city pretty much tells people that be defualt, there's really no other reason to visit (well, if you like bad brothels). The rest of the players were all listening intently as the DM ran through various encounters--some, I suspect, hoping for a slip

Burial rights in his church aren't too clearly defined. They give "proper" burials to those who deserve it (in their eyes) but don't seem terribly concerned with those they deem guilty, aside from the obvious health risks towns run by not burying their dead criminals.

I would have to ask the player or the DM, but I imagine if the bandits had gone to trial they would have faced a death sentance (assuming we got the right ones to trial). My impression is that their legal code is more based on the Code Napolean than American/British law--that is, your lawyer is more there to find out what happened, not to get you off (all the more reason not to get arrested during Mardi Gras!)

And I think the deadbeat dad sting was in Boston, or at least I am sure the tactic was used here (there) once, I remember seeing it on the news, although I think they dressed it up as "job training" and busted them all at once.

 

[AuraSeer]

American police in various cities have used that "bait and switch" tactic. It keeps working, so they like it. However, note that a city cop is not a paladin.

 

[Gizzard]

Did this particular Paladin take the standard "Paladins Code" as his personal Code or does he have a different, specific one while serving the God of Vengance?

I hate letting Paladins run loose without a Code; especially serving a portfolio like "Vengance" which can easily go outside LG. It seems the Paladin's player is honestly trying to serve his god in this case, but the result is a bit questionable.

 

[Westwind]

The code is roughly equal to the bits of Tyr's dogma I cited above, with a decent amount of room for mercy (he has a +1 shortsword of mercy called Clemency--it gets a lot of use). Although all Paladins are clearly LG, this church is a little more Lawful while the other LG supports Paladins who err on the Good side of things. Most of the time this translate to our paladin filling out legal paperwork. Good example: a church moved legally into the neighborhood (CN god of nature (wild aspects), chaos and storms). The Paladin wanted them out, but couldn't really do anything about it directly. So, along with the bard, they bought/leased up all the surrounding property (money scale sure did change from 2e to 3e), invested a ton of money into an opera house and other high-end things and made it so the church couldn't afford the property tax any more. Took a long time, but nice and legal. (Took a long time in-game, but this is a long-running campaign) His more recent actions are much more direct than normal, but he gets VERY direct when the laws allow him to do so. Moreso under martial law.

So, in short, the code presented in the PH isn't a good approximation of his code, which is much more specific. Is he a good guy? Sure, he strives to use every cure disease per week he can (I almost never see Paladins visit leper colonies). But I would not describe him as a softy.

 

[Umbran]

American police in various cities have used that "bait and switch" tactic. It keeps working, so they like it. However, note that a city cop is not a paladin.

A single city cop maynot be a paladin, but the police organization is certainly Lawful. Heck, they're tightly bound by anynumber of regulations on how they may and may not apprehend criminals.

The point was more supposed to be demonstrative. Is your first response to this story, "Hey, that's not fair, the police lied!"? Because that's the question here, in essense - is this form of deception "fair play"?

Personally, I think so. It certainly wasn't entrapment. The paladin had some evil doers to catch. He nabs them with a minimal loss of life - by using these guys' willingness to commit and admit these acts against them! What's more fair than that?

 

[Gizzard]

The code is roughly equal to the bits of Tyr's dogma I cited above, with a decent amount of room for mercy

Good, then we dont have to worry about what the traditional Paladins Code says about deception etc, only what Tyrs dogma says. But here is a part of Tyrs theology which might cause problems:

"Reveal the truth, punish the guilty and always be true in your actions"

I dont think the truth has been revealed here; as Forrester said a while back, "this God is probably of the opinion that Retribution should be PUBLIC." That might be as cold-blooded as dumping the corpses of the slain in the middle of the Bandit Camp and proclaiming, "I slew these wrongdoers in the name of (homebrewed) Tyr!", but it looks as if the Paladin took some pains to conceal the truth instead of reveal it.

Being "true in your actions" is another sticky wicket; but the rest of this thread has already covered varying opinions on this issue.

I suppose the homebrewed Tyr might not agree with this little chunk of dogma, but I think its vital to have Paladins understand clearly their gods philosophy; including what he/she values most if hard choices have to be made. Retribution over Truth? Or Truth over Retribution?

 

[Johno]

I really don't see why the Paladin even had to move from his Castle.

Spies could have easily ascertained the identity of the evil-doers, as they are all busy bragging about their deed in "Tent City".

After compiling a list of names, you present the Tent City with an Ultimatum: "Surrender these people or suffer the consequences."

Stuff like that happens all the time, IRL. Something similar happened last year, IIRC...

 

[Westwind]

If he had the resources to take on the bandit city, I'm sure he would, but it would be a slaughter (and not of bandits) if he did that. Heck, kingdoms lose money to the bandits and no one has really tried to wipe them out for fear of massive losses. He's got a decent leadership score, but not nearly enough troops for something of that scale and most of the rest of the church's army is engaged in holy war at the moment. Also, the player dosen't want to hijack the campaign. Going after the CE church makes sense for a lot of the characters since it has become a recurring villian of sorts, but none of us had any real motivation to set out on a campaign against the bandit kingdoms (help a party member out, sure....suffer through life in the army for months, no).

Gizzard makes some good point, which I will pass on. Although a lot of the Code of the church has been detailed, anyone who plays paladins knows that judgement calls come up in play all the time due to players' ability to do the totally unexpected and outrageous.

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

I had some similar problems playing a paladin in Monte Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

There it was e.g. necessary to ambush a sleeping cleric (5 people Coup de Grace) rather than waking him up and either face him honorably or take him prisoner.
We were sheerly outnumbered and the overall goal of saving the world was to big to be endangered by some petty unhonorable acts. Any straightforward approach of the paladin would have resulted in instant death!

(I even had my paladin wear the dread symbol of Tharizdun, or else they would have fried us on sight in the Outer Fane... )