Yet Another Set of Grapple Questions

[Hooly]

Hello All,

We had a situation in last nights session which is promting these questions. The situation involved an Elder Black Pudding and a single PC where the PC was being grappled by the Elder Balck Pudding. Here goes:

1) When an area of effect template is used against a creature (black pudding) of large size or greater, is a character/creature (PC) that the creature (black pudding) grappled effected in the same way as that of the "target" creature (black pudding) is?

Example: PC being grappled is moved into the same square (base) as the Blackpudding. The rules don't require the exact location of the PC on the black pudding's "base" to be known. One of the other PCs lets off a fireball, of which the blast template only covers half of the Black Pudding's base

2) Is there a miss chance of hitting the grappled creatue (PC) if the blast template only covers a portion of the targeted creature (Black Pudding)?

3) How does one calculate that if there is a "miss charce"?

4) Does a targeted spell (such as Sound Lancem or any spell which affects one target but has no "to hit" roll) have the random target issue that firing a missile weapon into grapple does?

5) In relation to four, does the same issue occur if the targeted spell is aimed at the ally?

If people could name any sources or page numbers that they know that can assist me, it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

 

[Vegepygmy]

My answers:

1) Yes, they are considered to share the same space.
2) No, they are considered to share the same space.
3) N/A
4) No, that applies only to ranged attacks that require attack rolls.
5) No, for the same reason.

 

[aboyd]

Would you agree that shooting a ranged weapon into a grapple is a double-whammy? You have a -4 to hit due to the careful aiming (page 140). You also have the issue of cover (page 150). If your shot (line of sight) touches a square of any other creature, then your target has cover (+4 to AC).

 

[Vegepygmy]

Neither of those penalties applies to shooting into a grapple.

First, the grapplers are not "in melee" with each other. Two characters are engaged "in melee" if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (PHB, page 140.) You don't threaten any squares (not even your own) while grappling. (PHB, page 156.) Thus, since neither grappling character threatens the other, they are not "in melee" and there is no -4 for shooting at them.

The cover issue is not as clear, but IMO it is covered by the "randomly determine target" rule. Whether your grappling opponent provides you any cover is determined by that roll; if he does, the consequence is that he gets hit instead of you. Obviously, if he's not getting hit instead of you, he's not providing you with any cover, is he? So it would be ridiculous to give you a cover bonus to AC when he isn't providing you with cover!

 

[aboyd]

Huh. That makes it sound like it's actually safer to fire at people grappling than people fencing. What penalties or dangers do you impose for firing into grapples?

 

[Elethiomel]

Huh. That makes it sound like it's actually safer to fire at people grappling than people fencing. What penalties or dangers do you impose for firing into grapples?

Just what the rules say: The target is determined randomly, choosing between all the grapplers.

So no, it's not safer. It's much less safe.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

It is easier to hit people that are grappling, compared to hitting people in melee (you lose your Dex bonus to AC when you are grappling, there is no -4 to attack someone in a grapple like there is with someone in melee).

However, unless you don't care which person you hit, the potential outcome of shooting into a grapple can be much worse. Since the hit is randomised in a grapple you run the risk of hitting your ally. If you are just shooting at people in melee there is no chance of hitting your ally (under RAW). That's big disadvantage in my opinion.

Olaf the Stout

 

[aboyd]

Thanks for the replies. That's great. I never saw the "targets are random" text in the rules for Grapple. Where can I find that?

I agree that it does sound like it is more dangerous. Thanks!

 

[Vegepygmy]

I never saw the "targets are random" text in the rules for Grapple. Where can I find that?

It's easy to miss. PHB, page 151, Table 8-6, footnote 3.