Yet another Sorceror tweaking thread

[IndyPendant]

This time however, I think I've got it. The following has been added to my House Rules file as a beta; I post it here to get the excellent responses I've come to expect from the posters here--both in support of my ideas, and when you guys rip me to shreds. : ) So, here it is. Tell me what you think.

Sorcerors in 3.5e are in my opinion the only class that wasn’t quite balanced. However, they are hardly the useless classes that (for example) rangers once were in 3.0e. Still, it is hard to refute that they are the weakest of all the ‘core’ classes now, whereas the rest of the classes have achieved as close a balance as they likely ever will. Therefore, I have initiated two main changes to the Sorceror class: Class Skills and Class Features.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Familiar: The sorceror no longer gets a familiar as a class feature.

1st level: Eschew Materials
Sorcerers gain their spells from innate, inborn power. Because of this, they have no need to worry about material components--they are, in essence, their own material components. A character with one sorceror level gains the feat Eschew Materials when casting sorceror spells. If a spell has more costly material components, the sorceror still does not need to obtain the material component; if he chooses, he may instead pay a price in experience points for casting the spell. The sorcerer then pays 1/25th of the gold-piece cost of the component in XP (minimum loss of 1 XP). Thus, if a sorcerer casts stoneskin, but does not possess the required 250 gp worth of diamond dust, the sorcerer instead pays 10 XP (250 divided by 25 is 10). Spells that already require an expenditure of experience points are handled normally, in addition to this ability. The sorceror chooses whether to use a material component or spend xp at the time each spell is cast, and any spells cast using this ability are not considered metamagically enhanced.

5th level: Heighten Spell
A character with five sorceror levels gains the feat Heighten Spell when casting sorceror spells. He can at will use a higher level spell slot for a lower level spell, as per the feat; in all ways, including save DC’s, it is then considered to be a spell of that level. Any spells cast using this ability are not considered to be metamagically enhanced.

10th level: Improved Counterspell
A character with ten sorceror levels gains the feat Improved Counterspell for sorceror spells.

15th level: Silent Spell
A character with fifteen sorceror levels gains the feat Silent Spell when casting sorceror spells. However, unlike the feat, a silenced spell does not use a spell slot one level higher, and any spells cast using this ability are not considered to be metamagically enhanced.

20th level: Still Spell
A character with twenty sorceror levels gains the feat Still Spell when casting sorceror spells. However, unlike the feat, a stilled spell does not use a spell slot one level higher, and any spells cast using this ability are not considered to be metamagically enhanced.

Edit: Switched the Silent Spell and Still Spell abilities.

 

[Golem2176]

15th level: Still Spell
A character with fifteen sorceror levels gains the feat Still Spell when casting sorceror spells. However, unlike the feat, a stilled spell does not use a spell slot one level higher, and any spells cast using this ability are not considered to be metamagically enhanced.

So, all spells are automatically stilled? Ok, as per somatic components that is where arcane spell failure comes into play. This character then takes 1 level of fighter and can be buffed out in a suit of enchanted full plate mail +5 for a base AC of 23, without any other magical enhancements. However, a character at this point has other means of protection and with proper expenditure of feats has a ring of protection +5 an amulet of natural armor +5 and a Robe of the Archmagi (+5 bonus here too). Add this all up and you're talking about a spellslinging character, with an AC of 38, who has no chance of losing a spell to failure! WOW! Talk about overpowered!

 

[Yair]

So, all spells are automatically stilled? Ok, as per somatic components that is where arcane spell failure comes into play. This character then takes 1 level of fighter and can be buffed out in a suit of enchanted full plate mail +5 for a base AC of 23, without any other magical enhancements. However, a character at this point has other means of protection and with proper expenditure of feats has a ring of protection +5 an amulet of natural armor +5 and a Robe of the Archmagi (+5 bonus here too). Add this all up and you're talking about a spellslinging character, with an AC of 38, who has no chance of losing a spell to failure! WOW! Talk about overpowered!

Hmph. Drop the armor for Bracers of Armor +8, and you are at AC 33 - with no need for the Still Spell feat. Not that big of an oomph as it sounds.
That having been said, I don't care much for armor-wearing spellslingers (yes, that includes clerics).

I preffer something like "magical affect" (floats inches above the ground etc. - see AU Magister), or "natural magic" - can turn one 0th level spell into a Spell-Like ability cast AT WILL, or some such. I don't see why these metamagic feats are relevant to the concept of the sorcerer (I am talking about Still/Silent Spell; maybe even Counterspell).
Another option would be to allow "Quick Spontanous Metamagic Applocation" of one metamagic feat. Or perhaps more feats?
I like the way the class begins, but not quite how it continues.

 

[IndyPendant]

Err...well, in fact both of you are wrong; the Robe of the Archmagi provides an 'armour bonus', and therefore doesn't stack with bracers or actual armour.

However, the point you were making is valid, and I must admit it's a simple side effect I should have, but forgot to, take into consideration. I will have to chew on that a bit; but what do you think about simply making Silent Spell the 15th ability, and Still Spell the 20th? By 20th level, maybe no one will care if the Sorceror takes a level of Fighter and dons plate (which he would have to be able to carry btw; not a minor point for a usually strength-less sorceror).

 

[^Graff]

Or, instead of Still spell, he could get a free Energy Substitution? There are other, weaker feats than still spell that he could have that don't make him too powerful.

 

[ciaran00]

WOW! Talk about overpowered!

Notice that the unbalancing aspect here isn't the fact that the sorceror is able to sling spells without disruption... it's the ridiculously stacking bonuses that are part of the system.

ciaran

 

[Vahktang]

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Skill points, no.
Cleric has 2, wizard has 2, fighter has 2, so sorcerer has 2.
Yes to Use magic device, no to diplomacy. Maybe to sense motive.

Class Features
Familiar: The sorceror no longer gets a familiar as a class feature.

Don't care for this one.

1st level: Eschew Materials
Sorcerers gain their spells from innate, inborn power. Because of this, they have no need to worry about material components--they are, in essence, their own material components. A character with one sorceror level gains the feat Eschew Materials when casting sorceror spells. If a spell has more costly material components, the sorceror still does not need to obtain the material component; if he chooses, he may instead pay a price in experience points for casting the spell. The sorcerer then pays 1/25th of the gold-piece cost of the component in XP (minimum loss of 1 XP). Thus, if a sorcerer casts stoneskin, but does not possess the required 250 gp worth of diamond dust, the sorcerer instead pays 10 XP (250 divided by 25 is 10). Spells that already require an expenditure of experience points are handled normally, in addition to this ability. The sorceror chooses whether to use a material component or spend xp at the time each spell is cast, and any spells cast using this ability are not considered metamagically enhanced.

Happen to like this. Think that this is should be how eschew material should be done.

5th level: Heighten Spell

10th level: Improved Counterspell

15th level: Still Spell

20th level: Silent Spell

No to all.
Let them buy them as normal feats if they want them.
And they'd be considered normal metamagic feats, with time consideration.

And that's my opinion.

More later,

Vahktang

 

[IndyPendant]

Hmm...well, my thread is still getting some responses, so I think I should try revisiting it.

The sorceror posted at the beginning of the thread is very close, if not exactly, the way I want it to be--after correcting for my goof and switching Silent Spell to level 15 and Still Spell to level 20, which I have just finished editing my original post to reflect. But apparently I'm getting a lot of flak for my idea, so I will attempt to defend it.

First, the skill points: it has been pointed out about five billion times since 3.0e came out that the Sorceror is the *one* class that doesn't get class skills tied to his primary ability. Even in 3.5e, he *only* gets bluff for a cha-based skill. In addition, the sorceror has been touted as an alternate version of the mage--but the mage is virtually guaranteed 5 skills per level (2 base + primary stat bonus of at least +3) while the sorceror gets 2 and only 2--and arguably has to have Concentration and Spellcraft. Result: Sorceror's base skills are basically 0. However, their skill selection sucks anyways; even the Fighter has potentially more useful skills (Climb, Jump, and Ride come to mind) so the complaint is two-edged. Just giving them better skill selection isn't good enough; in order to have any choice for skills whatsoever, a sorceror *needs* 4 skill points per level.

Second, the skills: most of the Cha-based skills are a no-brainer--or so I thought. To Vahktang, who said "Yes to Use magic device, no to diplomacy. Maybe to sense motive." --Umm...very nice, happy to hear it, thanks for coming...why? What possible problem could there be with Diplomacy? Is it overpowered? Honestly, the biggest problems I had with my skill list were removing Knowledge (Arcana) and adding Use Magic Device. I thought people would gripe about that, not Diplomacy. Anyways, the sorceror needs its skill list revamped. That, in my mind, is inarguable. What is debatable is what skills should be added or removed. However, just saying 'yes' and 'no' is worthless. You might as well not have posted.

Third, the abilities: Some people don't like the fact that I've given the sorceror anything at all; these people I will ignore. It is virtually inarguable that the sorceror needs *some* sort of change; currently, the sorceror is the *only* class that doesn't have special abilities, or gain further abilities as he levels. Every single other class gains something. The sorceror gains a familiar. Er...yay? Currently, there is no reason for a sorceror *not* to take a PrC, with the sole exception that since these PrCs are *all* designed with the wizard in mind, they can be difficult for a sorceror to qualify for. Any PrC that gives +1 caster level automatically better than the sorceror class--and that's just wrong.

That having been said, let me visit each ability individually and explain why I chose them.

1st: Eschew Materials.
This one is almost a given, and has the fewest opposed to it. Virtually every sorceror build I've ever seen has some version of this ability attached to it; the one tweak I did that makes it slightly my own is that I give the sorceror the option of choosing material component or xp cost each time he casts the spell. This one I think is safe to consider just right as is.

5th: Heighten Spell.
Personally, I can't understand why Sorcerors don't have this ability automatically. It just makes sense to me. A nice boost that is not in the least overpowered, in my opinion--and very 'core' to the class. Making this ability not considered metamagically enhanced is also pretty much required as well. Frankly, the only reason why this is delayed to 5th level is to spread out the abilities, and keep the pattern of 1 bonus every 5 levels; otherwise Sorcerors would start with this as well. This ability is more debatable than Eschew Materials--but in my opinion, not by much. You could say that I'm roughly 95% certain I like this one as is.

10th: Improved Counterspell.
This one is probably the one that could be argued fits the 'pattern' the least; but in my mind it suits the sorceror very well. Instead of countering with the exact spell--which there's a slim chance the sorceror even possesses--he can counter with a spell of same school and higher level. When combined with the 5th level Heighten Spell ability, it becomes even more useful. Again, few people argue with this one, and I could say I'm 90% certain I like it as is.

15th: Silent Spell.
Ah, now we start getting to where people's jaws seem to drop. Probably because of the two changes I made: 1) spells aren't considered metamagically enhanced with this ability; and 2) they don't get cast at level +1. Really, though, is this all that powerful? How often do you have to deal with silenced spellcasting? I don't think I ever have, as a GM or a Player. So what if I give this ability to them for 'free'? Keep in mind the thesis of this whole thing is that Sorcerors are slightly underpowered in the first place; this in my mind is only a very slight boost. And, keep in mind that you have to have fifteen levels as a sorceror to do it, and it only works with sorceror spells. Really, I fail to see the problem. And it fits the Sorceror motif perfectly: as he gains power as a sorceror, his ability to cast magic 'naturally' increases, so that he doesn't even need to speak the words to do it. For those who think this is overpowered, please, give me reasons why? Because currently I can say I'm roughly 80% certain this fits as is.

20th: Still Spell.
Ah, the one that *really* seems to get people going. Ok, this one I admit is a nice ability. Especially when freely stacked with Silent Spell, it makes it difficult to notice the sorceror is casting a spell. As a player of mine commented, at 20th sorcerors are not so much casting spells as spell-like abilities. And what seems to really get people is that suddenly a sorceror can cast spells in full armour without penalty. Well...really, so what? I've read the rules, and unless I'm missing something the sorceror's spellcasting is still interrupted by things like damage and riding; the *only* benefits provided are subtlety and armoured casting.

And consider: in order to use armour effectively, the sorceror must take 1 level of Fighter (or some such) at least. So now we've got an epic-level 21st character. 20 levels sorceror and 1 level fighter. Note that Eldritch Knight won't do it, since the char must have 20 *sorceror* levels to get this ability. His BAB is a whopping +11. His hit points are an average of 50!!! + 20xCon. Let's give him absurd equipment: +5 Full Plate, +5 Large Shield, 12 Dex, +5 Ring of Protection, and +5 Amulet of Armour. Now he's got very nearly the maximum AC of (10+13+7+1+5+5=)41. Impressive, no? However, now it's only fair to throw him against a Fighter equally decked out. A 21st Fighter with Str 33 (18 start, +5 through game, +5 book, +5 item), Weapon Focused and Spec'd to the nines, with a Long Sword +5 has a BAB of (21+11+2+5=)39, doing 1d8+(11+4+5=)20 damage. The fighter still can't miss the sorceror, in full armour! And he does half the sorceror's base hit points in one hit! Sure, the sorceror could be protected by lots of anti-melee spells--but if so, the armour's rather redundant anyways, isn't it? And the sorceror has actually *sacrificed* one of his sorceror levels to do this. God forbid a decked-out rogue hit him with a sneak attack. Sorceror go byebye. And the sorceror can't fight back worth a damn, because he's only got +11 BAB. (And please don't talk to me about True Strike. It's only castable a few times a day, uses up an action, and I've already established that the ability to cast in armour just doesn't make much of a difference.)

So. With all this in mind, where's the flaw? Silent Spell and Still Spell are useful abilities--but I can't see how they are so powerful they are 'broken'. Please, tell me where the flaw is? Because currently I like the build, as is.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I am in absolute agreement with Vahktang regarding skill points. Fighter, Cleric, and Wizard get 2 skill points per level. Sorcerors get two. (Yes, the Wizard gets more skill points total. This is, in my opinion, how it should be. Most of those skills will be Knowledge and Craft.)

I would remove Craft from the Sorcerors' skill list. Wizards are the main crafters of magic items-- Sorcerors' limited spell list likewise limits the kinds of items they can create, and they lack the bonus feats to spend on Item Creation feats.

In its place, I would add Use Magic Device. I would also add Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. I would not, however, add other Charisma based skills such as Gather Information, Perform, or Disguise. Those belong to the Rogue and Bard. (Who, by virtue of more skill points, have little to fear from the Sorceror on this account.) I would not add Sense Motive.

Instead of adding automatic metamagic (which becomes easily imbalanced), I would give Eschew Materials and one bloodline feat at first level, and, following the Wizard's bonus feat progression, the feats which use the bloodline feats as prerequisites. (See Dragon #311.)

I would remove the Familiar from the Sorceror. It is of roughly equal value to a feat, and I believe Eschew Materials and a Bloodline are equivalent to Scribe Scroll and a Familiar. Also, I believe that since the Sorceror is not as studious as the Wizard, and is far more socially inclined, they do not need (or desire) a supernatural companion as much as a Wizard does. Also, creating/summoning a Familiar seems to me more in line with the Wizard's studious approach to magic.

Then, I would say that the casting time adjustment of Quicken Spell overrides the casting time adjustment of using metamagic feats. I would leave the altered casting time in place, but I do not think it is balanced to deny Sorcerors the use of Quicken Spell, especially since they do not gain bonus feats to spend on metamagic. (And, since Haste no longer allows them to cast more than one spell per round.)

As a further note, I would add Draconic Bloodline to the list of prerequisites of the Dragon Disciple, so that non-draconic Sorcerors cannot qualify, and Bards must spend an extra feat to do so. I would compensate for this by designing similar Prestige Classes for the Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, and various Half-Elemental templates. (Not sure what I'd do for Fey Bloodlines.)

I do not think, by any stretch of the imagination, that the Sorceror is underpowered. In most situations, if well played and well constructed, a Sorceror character is a viable character choice, and in many situations, more powerful than the Wizard. What the Sorceror lacks is a defined flavor, which makes him stand out more from the Wizard.

 

[jayaint]

[trying not to hijack too horribly]

One of my main concerns with the sorcerer class (via WotC, or presented here) is the fact that sorcerers do not receive 2nd level spells until 4th level, therefore putting them one level behind a single classed wizard. Has the reason for this been documented? Am I THAT far behind?

Anyways, I was wondering if it would throw things totally out of whack to give sorcerers "0" spells per day at each wizard-going-up level (i.e. 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc). This would allow a sorcerer to gain spells per day based on their Cha bonus. I would allow sorcerers one spell known at that level.. but the spell so chosen is NOT eligible for swapping at 4th, 8th, etc, and would therefore be their one spell for the next level; the one spell known on WotC's table 3-17 at each new spell level.

It would allow sorcerers access to spells at the same "rate" as wizards, but show that they have to feel their way innate-ly and timidly alomst, rather than bookishly, boldly raising their powers.

[hijack off]

I like Indy's class as he has presented it. I REALLY like eschew materials early on. I might keep the familiar at the expense of the bloodline feats.. but thats possibly b/c I don't have access to Dragon #311.

No one in our campaigns uses the silent/still/etc chain very much, so I can't comment on that portion, though I like the idea of a high level sorcerer just kind of nodding his head and having fantastic spells go off!

Just wondering what anyone thought of adding the "0" to allow the sorcerer to SORTA keep pace with the wizards. Thanks.