Yet another Spring attack Question

[Tooth]

I had a question about spring attack, and after reading all the previous posts on spring attack that I could find on this board, I was still left without an answer. As I understand the way you all interpert spring attack, in the round when one is using this feat you are able to move up to your speed, and attack anywhere in the middle of this movement. This interpertation essentailly assumes that you are using up both your move, and standard (attack) action through the use of Spring attack, but the move action is simply broken up into two parts.

I do not see that this is clear from the rules. The description of Spring attack states that "When using the attack action with a melee weapon you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed." The operative phrase being 'attack action.' I take 'attack action' to mean a standard action which has been used to declare an attack. Hence one should still be able to declare a move action either before or after this standard action.

So I take my standard action to declare an attack. I decide to make this attack action a spring attack. Assuing a 30' base land speed, I prance in 15', attack my foe, then prance out 15'. Thats my standard action, and I should still have a move action left. Spring attack does not state (that I can find) that it 'uses up' your move action, nor can I find that it states that it requires a full round action to use (which I think it should if it is using up both your move and standard action for a round).

I realize that it seems very overpowered, and possibly 'contrary to the spirit of the rules' to allow a person with spring attack to both move their speed (as their move action) and then use spring attack (as their standard) to move in further while attacking. However, I cannot find where this would be forbidden by the rules.

And one additional thing I just thought of. Assuming that the use of Spring attack uses up both your standard and move action in a round, how would one mediate a case in which an indivudal is only allowed a partial action (such as in a suprise round or someone under the effect of a slow spell). Would they be unable to use Spring attack? Or would they be allowed to use it but not be allowed to move their full movement (pehaps they could only spring for half movement)?

Please point out to me any important phrases or clauses I may be missing, which would forbid the above move, spring attack combination.

Thank you.

 

[mikebr99]

The spring attack feat isn't a std. action... it is a mechanic to allow you to split your movement around your std. melee attack in such a way that there is at least 5ft. of movement before and after... and so that movement does not provoke an AoO from the target.

Every round you are going to use a std. action... all you have left is a move action (& free actions). Nothing gives you anything move then one move action while you are attacking in the same round.

And Slow reduces the target to only a std. action in his round. So you couldn't use spring attack... as there isn't time left to move if you are going to attack once.

Oh... yeah. Welcome to the boards.

Mike

 

[Tooth]

The spring attack feat isn't a std. action... it is a mechanic to allow you to split your movement around your std. melee attack

Spring attack is not a standard action, but acording to the way I am reading the description it is used as part of a standard action, or more specificly, an attack action. My problem with it is that while the use of the feat does involve movement, I dont see that the feat makes it clear that this movement uses up your move action for the round. This is the main discrepancy between how you interpert spring attack, and what I am reading. I dont see anywhere where it states that spring attack would deny you your further move action. Quite to the contrary, it states that it is used as part of your attack action. An attack action is a standard action, hence you should still have a move left.

And Slow reduces the target to only a std. action in his round. So you couldn't use spring attack... as there isn't time left to move if you are going to attack once.

As above, sicne you are allowed a standard action, and this standard action could be an attack action, you should be able to use the feat.

I understand that this differs from how you interpert it, and I agree that your interpertation is probably more in line with what the writers intended. My question is, does it somewhere in the rules make it more clear that your point of view is correct?

Oh... yeah. Welcome to the boards.

Thank you. I do feel welcome.

 

[mikebr99]

Spring attack is not a standard action, but acording to the way I am reading the description it is used as part of a standard action, or more specificly, an attack action. My problem with it is that while the use of the feat does involve movement, I dont see that the feat makes it clear that this movement uses up your move action for the round. This is the main discrepancy between how you interpert spring attack, and what I am reading.

Spring attack SHOULD really have been described as a special full round action.... as it uses up all of your movement and your std. attack. All that is left are free actions.

Mike

 

[Tooth]

Spring attack SHOULD really have been described as a special full round action....

Thats sort of my thinking, that it should have been described as a full round action, thereby essentially using up both your attack and move, and also forbiding the use of it under situations in which only a partial action is available.

However, since it wasnt.....

Essentailly my reason for posting here was to see if maybe anyone knew of some sentence or clause tucked deep into one of the chapters of the books that I have forgotten that makes it clear that it should be treated like this. Or under the rules, as they are currently written, is it perfectly legal to say that spring attack seems to allow both a move action, and a spring attack action. Meaning that I would have to then invoke the divine right of the DM to place my own personal interpertation upon the use of this feat.

I am sorry if I did not make this clear in either of my other posts.

 

[mikebr99]

However, since it wasnt.....

However, since it wasn't, you fall back to basic rules, which say you are able to complete a std. action and a move action in your round. Nothing gives you an extra action to add to this, not haste... nothing. And since spring attack doesn't say anything about any extra action (move or otherwise)... and it also doesn't say that it is a std. action either.. you go back to basics.

A rule of thumb is that if some rule set doesn't specifically say what can be accomplished by using the rule... then it can't. A rule set is the max that can be done, not the min. YMMV


Mike

 

[durin]

Sounds Like Everyone Is Right

I dont see that the feat makes it clear that this movement uses up your move action for the round.

<snip>

I dont see anywhere where it states that spring attack would deny you your further move action.

<snip>

I think the section in the feat description "...provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed." is their failed attempt to state you don't get anymore movement.

Total is a nice, all encompassing word, but the location of that phrase does draw into question whether such total movement involves just the standard (attack) action or the all of the movement in the round. Poor sentence structure, that's what it is.

I agree with the ruling that Spring Attack essentially changes a standard (attack) action into a full round action in which the move action is split into two smaller parts. (And, therefore, is impossible to do while slowed.)

I checked in the movement section, action section, and combat section of the Player's Handbook and found no further discourse on Spring Attack. I went to the WOTC website and downloaded the most recent FAQ (6/28/04). It said nothing about Spring Attack. Therefore, it appears there is no more desciption of Spring Attack beyond what the feat description says (and doesn't say.) It may exist somewhere in a Sage Advice column from Dragon Magazine, but I know of no index and don't care to sit down and page through them all.

My suggestion: If you want a definitive answer, email the WOTC folks.

Durin

 

[Breakdaddy]

While I agree its not entirely clear, I too must fall back on the basic combat rules. Since this feat doesnt state that it adds extra movement or an extra action this round, then the PC should get the standard and move actions for the round just like anyone else. The benefit being that the PC can split the move unlike those without this feat.

 

[Coredump]

Try this:

When taking a std action, you may move before or after the action.

Does that mean movement is included in a std action? No, it means you are *allowed* to *use* your movement either before or after your std action. But it still costs you your move action.

When you have Spring attack and take a std action (of attack), you may move before *and* after the action.

Does this mean the movement is included? No, it just means you are *allowed* to *use* your movement in two parts.

The feat is not saying you get additional movement, rather it is stating when you are allowed to use up your movement allowance.

It does not say you can move *during* the attack action, only that you can move before and after.

.

 

[Camarath]

Tooth, the ability also does not say "As an attack action" (or standard action or full-round action or whatnot) which is the verbiage used when the action lined out in a feat is its own special action (as in Manyshot).