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Yet Another Variant: The Fighter...

Land Outcast said:
Yes, but it isn't too crazy, a maximum bonus would do the trick.

The point was that +1 Will Save does not compare well with some of the other options such as +1 AC.

No way I'll consider Weapon Specialization or GreaterWeapSpec good feats. I might consider Weapon Focus and GWF average feats because of their flexibility, but that's it.

I've seen many characters take 4 levels of fighter for Weapon Spec. Now you can get the same effect in 3 levels, and it applies to all melee weapons.

Long term (20 level perspective) I agree that Weapon Spec isn't that good. But I've played a lot of campaigns that went maybe half that far.

The overall idea of this new fighter class seems to be a feat every even level, and about half a feat every odd level. This isn't too bad, but some of the stacking bothers me. +5 AC, +10 damage. But without the war talent stacking, this class suffers from the same problem as the standard fighter: you pick the war talents and feats you want early and multiclass away later.
 

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From the Duelist:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm

Canny Defense (Ex)
When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

This is the inspiration for the Canny Dodge ability. Also, in my campaign, Dodge gives you a +1 AC bonus against all attackers, not just one.

From the Strong Hero in the Modern SRD:
http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Strong.php

Melee Smash Talent Tree
The Strong hero has an innate talent that increases melee damage.

Melee Smash:
The Strong hero receives a +1 bonus on melee damage.

Improved Melee Smash:
The Strong hero receives an additional +1 bonus on melee damage (+2 total).
Prerequisite: Melee smash.

Advanced Melee Smash:
The Strong hero receives an additional +1 bonus on melee damage (+3 total).
Prerequisites: Melee smash, improved melee smash.

This is the inspiration for the Melee Smash war talent. I will add a prerequisite to it, so that people aren't taking it in until after they have the chance to get weapon specialization.

I'll do some updating on the original post, based on the feedback I've received and my thoughts on it. Also, I'm taking it out to 25th level, since I don't want to really use the open-ended epic rules of ELH. People that want to use it in their own games can drop levels 21-25 if they want to take it into the ELH rules.

Hope this helps,
Flynn
 
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Flynn said:
From the Duelist:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm

This is the inspiration for the Canny Dodge ability. Also, in my campaign, Dodge gives you a +1 AC bonus against all attackers, not just one.

The duelist ability is a prestige class ability that works only in no armor with no shield while holding a melee weapon and limited to your intelligence bonus. At best you could get +1 by 7th level. Your fighter war talent works in full plate, with a shield or a bow. You can get +1 at first level if your Int is 3. And you can still take the dodge feat. For that matter, you can take the duelist prestige class and super-stack.

Not that the +1 bothers me, it is the +5 you can get by 9th level. Limit war talents to something like you can't take the same war talent twice in a row, and things get a little more reasonable.
 

maggot said:
Not that the +1 bothers me, it is the +5 you can get by 9th level. Limit war talents to something like you can't take the same war talent twice in a row, and things get a little more reasonable.
Why does it matter when he gets the +5? If it's too much at level 9 then it should be too much at level 99. A broken game mechanic is always broken, no matter what level it arrives at.

Similarly, if it's okay at level 99 then it should be fine at level 9. Having a cap on it should be sufficient. Also, take into account what that character is giving up to get his +5 as fast as possible. Finally, keep in mind that AC increases are always less beneficial than attack increases; the nature of the system makes that simple fact.
 

maggot said:
The duelist ability is a prestige class ability that works only in no armor with no shield while holding a melee weapon and limited to your intelligence bonus.

I have added the limitations of the Canny Defense duelist ability, save that I am not imposing an intelligence bonus limitation. As I figure it, I've already put a limit equal to that of enhancing magical armor (+5 max), and if a PC wants to invest in this ability to the exclusion of all else, then he is making sacrifices in other areas that should be fun to accentuate from time to time.

With Regards,
Flynn
 

ValhallaGH said:
Why does it matter when he gets the +5? If it's too much at level 9 then it should be too much at level 99. A broken game mechanic is always broken, no matter what level it arrives at.

Similarly, if it's okay at level 99 then it should be fine at level 9. Having a cap on it should be sufficient. Also, take into account what that character is giving up to get his +5 as fast as possible. Finally, keep in mind that AC increases are always less beneficial than attack increases; the nature of the system makes that simple fact.

That is a false statement, I'm afraid. Getting a large bonus at lows level IS more significant and powerful than getting it at upper levels. +5 AC at 9th-level is more useful than gaining it at 13th or 20th-level. The higher level you get, the more disproportionately high attack bonuses are compared to most folks' Armor Class.

As for your other point: You can't take Weapon Focus 5 times, and it's more limited (only works with one weapon each time), so the AC bonus is already broader and more potent than the attack bonus you could get from feats or something. At 9th-level a +5 AC is pretty handy, though considering what you give up (armor and shield) it's not that good; but that's what high Dexterity, Bracers of Armor (or an ally's Mage Armor spell), and stuff are for.
 

Flynn said:
Please note that the extra feats and such listed under starting features are not available to anyone that multiclasses into this version of the Fighter class.

These are some good points, and I will have to consider how I approach them. Some of these abilities are inspired by D20 Modern talents, and so the power level on those is not one I'm overly worried about in comparison to some of the others that I cherry-picked from other suggestions.

Thanks, maggot,
Flynn

Keep in mind that D20 Modern has a hard, very low limit on its class Talents. There are only 3 Melee Smash talents, 3 Ignore Hardness talents, 3 Extreme Effort talents, 3 Increased Speed talents, etc. Even Advanced Classes don't add to any of those, as far as I can recall from the D20 Modern book and supplements I own. Upper limits to the number of copies would be preferable, even if they're a bit higher than the D20 Modern versions (like 5 copies maximum instead of 3).
 

Flynn said:
Exactly. It's an implementation of the D20 Modern class defense, in that it adds to AC in addition to armor, instead of UA's replacement of the armor bonus. No DEF bonus may exceed the Max Dex Bonus of the armor you are wearing.

Question: Do other classes get an AC bonus like this, as with all D20 Modern classes?
 

Flynn said:
Starting Skills/Ranks Per Level: 5 + Int modifier (or 4 + Int modifier if non-human). {As an aside: In my game, skill lists are based on background, not class.}

Question: What happens then if someone grows up a peasant farmer, then gets conscripted into the military by his local Lord, and over time becomes a military regular, a professional soldier? Or when a rogue gives up his wicked ways and joins a respectable wizard's academy to put his wits to good use? Or when a middle-aged samurai retires to life in a monastery, practicing martial arts and scholarly pursuits? Or any other time when an individual changes his/her path in life and tries to pursue a different trade/whatever?

Starting Features
In addition to the two feats all characters get at 1st character level (one feat if non-human), a Fighter begins play with four (4) Weapon Group Proficiency feats, Armor Proficiency (light, medium and heavy), Shield Proficiency and one Fighter bonus feat.

Another question: does Shield Proficiency in your campaign include tower shields? And if not, has the Tower Shield Proficiency feat been added to your Fighter's bonus feat list? Cuz if anyone should be able to learn to use a tower shield without having to waste one of their precious few normal feat slots, it would be Fighters.

* Bodyguard: If the Fighter is within 5 ft. of any ally who takes damage from an attack, he may spend an action point at the time of the attack to switch positions with the ally and take all the damage and any associated effects instead.

This needs clarification. Must they declare use at the time they learn their ally is stricken, or can it be after they learn how much damage their ally would have taken (and thus, whether or not it would've killed or KO'd the ally)? Your wording in the beginning and middle parts of the description are kinda contradictory and thus leave it uncertain.

* Canny Defense: The Fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wielding a melee weapon and not wearing armor or using a shield. If the Fighter is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. This war talent may be taken up to five times, and its benefits stack.

I would at least add a restriction that this War Talent does not stack with any other class' abilities by the same name. Ergo, if a Fighter multiclasses into Duelist later, they would use whichever Canny Defense ability granted the higher bonus, rather than stacking them.

Since you're using D20 Modern's class defense bonus, you should recognize the fact that getting to stack lots of AC bonuses together is a Bad Thing when several of those can be quite high (like your Fighter's class defense bonus). D20 Modern itself has far fewer sources of AC/Defense than D&D 3E does (even if using FX in the game, they have a smaller range of FX items and smaller bonuses on some stuff).

* Extreme Effort: The Fighter can push himself to make an extreme effort related either to a Strength check (such as forcing a door or bending the bars of a jail cell) or a Strength-based skill check. The Fighter must decide to use this ability before making the check. The effort requires a full-round action and provides a +2 bonus on the check. This war talent may be taken multiple times, and its benefits stack.

I'd limit this to 5 copies at maximum, or 3 copies like in D20 Modern. Regdar the upper-level human Fighter probably shouldn't be bending/snapping adamantine jail cell bars with his bare hands, however unlikely it is that anyone would find a lot of good uses for such inhuman Strength checks. Though, if you limit it to 3 copies, it might be balanced with a +3 bonus per copy instead of +2, given its limited usefulness most of the time.

* Ignore Hardness: The Fighter can ignore 2 points of an object’s hardness when making a melee attack to break it. This war talent may be taken multiple times, and its benefits stack.

Similarly, this should be limited to maybe 5 copies at maximum, or perhaps 3 copies. 10 copies would allow a Fighter to chop adamantine objects in half pretty easily, while 5 copies would still be a large boon to those who like to break things but wouldn't necessarily be too powerful.

* Improved Carrying Capacity: The Fighter may treat his Strength ability score as if it were two points higher only for the purposes of improving his carrying capacity. This war talent may be taken multiple times, and its benefits stack.

I would make it an effective +3 Strength for carrying capacities instead of +2. Also, I think you need to note whether or not this affects pushing/pulling capacities. And again limit it to 5 copies, cuz it would be wierd for a high-level but low-strength (archery and weapon finesse oriented) Halfling Fighter to be lugging around dead ogres on his back.

* Improved Reactions: The Fighter gains a +2 competence bonus on initiative. This war talent may be taken multiple times, and its benefits stack.

Waaaaaay too good. Initiative can be quite important for multiclassed rogue-types and caster-types, as well as any kind of high-level character. Limit this to 3 copies at most, and add a prerequisite of, like, 4 Fighter levels per copy (so 4th-level minimum to gain 1 copy, 8th minimum to gain a 2nd copy, and 12th minimum to gain a 3rd copy). This is better than the Duelist prestige class' ability, and 10 copies for +20 Initiative would be scary, especially with Improved Initiative and good Dexterity. Heck, 5 copies with a multiclassed Fighter 9/Rogue 11 could be sick.

* Magicbane: The Fighter gains a +2 competence bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

This ability essentially makes the other few save-increasing War Talents comparatively sucky and worthless for a while (and far less cost efficient).

This is effectively the same as giving them Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes all at once, except that it stacks with those feats and there are just a few things it won't apply against. Generally just some poisons (works against the Poison spell though), some diseases (works against the Contagion spell though), and Stunning Fist, plus maybe the occasional minor thing.

Reduce the bonus to +1.

You could add a separate, Greater Magicbane ability though, with prerequisites of Magicbane and Fighter level 11+ or something, that increases the bonus from Magicbane to +2.

* Men-At-Arms: The Fighter can raise a group of fighting men (and women) from the surrounding area. To do so, the Fighter must spend 2d4 days doing nothing but spreading the word in the local region and rallying interest. On the morning following his efforts, the Fighter will have gathered together a fighting force of an Encounter Level (EL) equal to his Fighter class level plus his Charisma bonus. The Fighter is responsible for food and supplies for these men, and they will follow him so long as they are treated well. Prerequisite: 7th level Fighter.

I'm not sure there's any way to make this balanced. So essentially it's like the Leadership feat, but stacks with that feat, and is much more vague, mentions no limits or possible difficulties in raising such a force, has no limits on how many such fighting forces he or she can gather and keep around, says nothing about what kind of a fighting force this is (warriors, fighters, whatever; 1st-level folks, 5th-level folks, a mix of stuff; same race, different races, same alignment, mixed alignments, same cause/affiliation, different causes/affiliations, allied lands, enemies' lands, etc.), and is basically just terribly vague and open to both rampant abuse and harsh adjudication.

I'm not even sure there's any reason for this ability to be there. Why not just add Leadership to the list of Fighter bonus feat options if you want them to be capable of gathering a force of allied warriors?

* Mettle: If the Fighter is exposed to any effect that would normally allow him to attempt a Fortitude saving throw for partial damage or effect, he suffers no damage or effect if he makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. Mettle cannot be used while unconscious or sleeping. Prerequisite: 5th level Fighter.

I would raise the prerequisite to 9th-level Fighter or so. Depends a little bit on whether or not you change the description to also apply against effects that allow a Fortitude save to negate. If not, then it may be fine at 5th-level Fighter as a prerequisite.

See, Mettle, even when limited for some strange reason as your version is, is generally used to oppose save-or-die effects, save-or-be-taken-out-of-the-fight effects, and save-or-be-seriously-weakened effects.

Evasion is used to simply reduce damage (there is little if anything that Evasion applies against that is not either primarily or entirely damage-dealing). Damage is a much easier to deal with effect, and all kinds of other things can reduce or remove it. It's rather much harder to get back up and fight when you fail a Fortitude save against death effects or petrification or whatnot. Of course, this ability applies when making the save, I dunno, I don't have time right now to check everything for whether or not any Fort-for-partial stuff is still fairly nasty when saved against.

I noticed some other strange differences in your version of Mettle. It says it applies only against stuff with a Fortitude save for partial damage or effect. Normally, Mettle applies against stuff that allows a Fortitude save or a Will save for partial effect or no effect. I'm not sure if this is intentional on your part or not (it does seem intentional that you left out Will saves, but I'm not sure about the rest).

* Melee Smash: The Fighter receives a +1 bonus on melee damage. This war talent may be taken multiple times, and its benefits stack. Prerequisite: 5th level Fighter.

Limit this like in D20 Modern. 3 or 5 copies at maximum. Also, should probably be limited to affecting melee damage with weapons, unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and grapple checks (so as not to affect stuff like Shocking Grasp from a multiclassed fellow, which would be kinda wierd when you can't hit stuff harder when you're just tapping them with an electrified finger).

* Shield Guardian: If the Fighter is within 5 ft. of any ally, he may spend an action point at any time to grant his ally a shield bonus to AC equal to one the Fighter possesses, until the beginning of the Fighter's next turn. This bonus stacks with any shield bonus the ally might have.

This may or may not be too strong, depending on what kinda action points you're using (frex, D20 Modern's action point rules/allotment are different from Eberron's and others, for instance). I dunno, may be alright even if you get a bundle of AP each level, maybe.
 

Arkhandus said:
Keep in mind that D20 Modern has a hard, very low limit on its class Talents. There are only 3 Melee Smash talents, 3 Ignore Hardness talents, 3 Extreme Effort talents, 3 Increased Speed talents, etc. Even Advanced Classes don't add to any of those, as far as I can recall from the D20 Modern book and supplements I own. Upper limits to the number of copies would be preferable, even if they're a bit higher than the D20 Modern versions (like 5 copies maximum instead of 3).

I've played Grim Tales, which also uses the Talent trees, except with no limits like the ones you are proposing. Those games have been quite balanced without that kind of artificial limit. If you are going to focus on just that one talent alone, then you leave yourself with a weakness that a diverse range of encounter types will uncover and reveal for you. Specializing is good to a point, but after that point, it makes you a one-trick pony, and the type of game I run tends to limit that from happening.

Hope that helps,
Flynn
 

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