You can't win this encounter

[tomBitonti]

One thing is to make sure that the players have tools for evaluating the difficulty of an encounter. And, that they have options other than a fight. And that moving forward the story or campaign doesn't require fighting a particular enemy.

This can be hindered by an "open door, roll initiative" tendency for encounters, ramping up an encounter to the use of lethal force as the immediate step. And by a lack of feasible options for breaking off combat.

TomB

 

[Grogg of the North]

I'm going to tell you right now that some players will not notice an obvious clue. In a Star Wars campaign I was running, the PCs were planet side on their ship being attacked by swarm after swarm of Tie Fighters. I gave them plenty of obvious clues that the Empire wasn't going to run out of Tie Fighters any time soon and there were a lot more Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters in orbit. Instead of finding a place to lay low the pilot continued to engage the Tie Fighters until they were blown out of the sky.

I once started a campaign that had a goblin army attack the PCs home town. The PCs and the town militia fought the goblins but fell back from the town wall and gate into the town. As the rest of the citizens fled for their lives, the PCs got ready to make a stand against the goblins in the town square. The forces arrayed against the players were, at least to me, clearly overwhelming. I wound up having to punt and ask the players if they were prepared to go down swinging or if they wanted to make a dash for the exits. Not a great start to a campaign.

 

[Gorgon Zee]

I had one GM (for a non-D&D game) that would explicitly tell us before play began if the threats were going to be particularly high threat.

In Fate, I would say "Since you are a <choose suitable aspect> you know that fighting this would be near-unwindable"

in Night's Black Agents (Gumshoe) "Since you are skilled in Tradecraft, you can tell that these guys re so far above your pay grade that fighting them would be suicide"

In Pathfinder "You don't need to make a Recall Knowledge check here -- your passive knowledge lets you know that this is more dangerous by far than the most dangerous enemy you have yet faced; there would be no disgrace in fleeing from it and staying means almost certain death"

I strongly agree with Umbran -- hints are too risky a tool; as a GM I can think I have been pretty clear, but the players aren't on the same page and so they plough on and because I think they have understood the risk, I don't take any further actions to make them aware. Much safer to be absolutely clear.

 

[tomBitonti]

Unwinnable fights can cut against game expectations. If the pcs are hired to rescue a family that was taken by goblins, and they discover, deep in the goblin cave, a powerful goblin shaman well above their power level, a lot of players would give the fight their best shot. Their fantasy is to overcome evil foes and rescue people, not to run away and allow the hostages to be sacrificed or eaten or soled into slavery.
TomB

 

[corwyn77]

In my first Call of Cthulhu game, I was the only one who was willing to read "books". So I was the only who had Mythos skill. Once, the keeper took me aside and just said "Run".

 

[MNblockhead]

In my first battle, for the first session of Rappan Athuk, the monster took down a character in one hit. Now they were in a caravan with a lot of guards, so they survived by staying smart and letting the guard absorb a lot of the damage. No permanent PC deaths, but lots of dead guards and they got the message.

This makes the players a lot more shy about taking risks and isn't as conducive to heroic play, but for our campaign, that is a feature, not a bug. The Dungeon of Graves is a terrifying place for low-level characters and even at higher levels, they need to be careful about not being too cocky.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Something that I've been seeing a lot lately is that the party should be faced with encounters that they cannot win. That they should run. My question to you is how do you convey this information to the party without being ham-fisted about it?

Uh...you don't? I mean, it's NOT UP TO YOU TO SAVE THEM, simply put. Your question is like someone picking up a 1000pg mystery novel and the first page says "Synopsis: The butler did it, in the Kitchen, with the Candlestick. Enjoy!".

So, you do nothing. The Players will figure it out...or not. Either way, it's not your problem and certainly not your "job" to help them not die.

Now there are the obvious clues like the dragon being really really big or the player failing to penetrate the monster's armor after rolling a 19. But how would you subtly let your players know they're in over their heads. Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you just can't save the players from themselves?

Ok, I think you're doing it wrong. Y'see...when you're sitting there doing the DM thing, explaining the situation in terms of what the PC's would sense (see, hear, smell, taste, touch), all that information is already "letting your Players know". If they don't recognize the danger, then either they are really not picking up on it for whatever reason...or you just need more practice describing stuff. Keep at it! You'll get there!

Tips: Tone of your voice and "pacing". These, imnsho, you just have to learn/develop. They can't be taught. There is a distinct difference between "The chamber is 40' square, with a vaulted ceiling, 20' or so overhead at it's central point in the middle of the room. The walls have faded frescos of Sir Lightheart slaying various foul creatures...a black dragon being decapitated, a demon being struck down by Sir Lighthearts legendary sword, 'Angle-Kiss', and another of the Evil Ursurper, King Rendwood kneeling in defeat before the knight. In the north west corner is an old Romanesque style couch and footstool. Upon the couch rests the bones of some humanoid, once dressed in fine clothes, now rotted and eaten away. A dust covered golden goblet lays on it's side, just out of reach of the skeletons outstretched hand. Slowly, to your horror, red-glowing embers start to form in it's dark eye-sockets!". ... ...and... ... "The 40' square, vaulted room has frescos on the wall, but your attention is drawn immediately to the skeleton on the small couch in the NW corner...as it's eye-sockets suddenly spark to un-life with a hellish red glow!".

The length of the description and the detail all set the "pacing" of the scene. In the first, it's more of a "slow burning horrific realization", and the second is more of a "sudden surprise of danger". Both descriptions will affect your Players differently. This is how you can "hint" at something very dangerous up ahead. Description, description length, and tone of voice.

In the first example, it is described with the Players being "horrified", but not "surprised"; meaning they are FAR more likely to react in a manner appropriate to the danger; they will think more carefully and have more time to assess the potential danger...given all the other potential hints at who...or what... lairs in this dungeon/ruin, they are more apt to say "Yup! That's a Lich! RUN!". But if the second description is used, IME, Players will tend to react 'instinctively'...and, for many adventurers, this is "Get it before it can do something!", and not fully appreciate the situation for what it is.

So...as I said. "Pacing" of your descriptions. This is the BEST way that I have found to help "hint" (if you can call it that) that something overly-dangerous is up ahead.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Imaculata]

I never present my players with encounters where they have to run. Because presuming an action on the part of the players is likely to result in the opposite.

Instead, I foreshadow the difficulty of an encounter, so they can make their own choice. After all, just because an encounter is hard, does not mean they are guaranteed to lose.

If an encounter proves too tough, fleeing is always an option. But I never presume that my players will do as I intended.

In my sandbox play style, most encounters will be level appropriate, or appropriate in regards to the strength of the party. Challenge Ratings can only get you so far. I mostly rely on my knowledge of previous battles and how the players handled them. In my designs for battles, I also try to include alternate strategic options that can improve their chances. Simply playing smart can make even the toughest fights a little easier.

However, it is possible for my players to run into opponents that are too strong. Too strong in this case, means likely to result in a casualty or two, or a severely wounded party, but never unbeatable. I try to drop enough hints in regards to the difficulty of the challenge, so the players can make an informed decission.

The best way I've found to teach my players when to run, is to show early on that some opponents can be lethal. In our very first session, I had a crocodile rip a poor npc ro shreds while the level 1 party watched. They learned right away to be mindful of their hp pool, and they kept their distance from this foe. They also learned the value of seeking out alternate strategies, when their druid befriended a crocodile and turned it against their foes.

As a DM I cannot stress enough just how important it is to reward your players for clever strategies. Start doing it right from the very first session and you'll teach them to do it more often.

 

[Umbran]

So, you do nothing. The Players will figure it out...or not. Either way, it's not your problem and certainly not your "job" to help them not die.

With respect, the GM is the only window the players have on the fictional world. If the GM does not make the information available, there's nothing to "figure out". They cannot figure it out until you tell them.

So, "do nothing" taken literally is is actually "they will not be able to make choices about whether to engage until it is too late".

 

[Odysseus]

My answer would be very table specific. My current players don't ask alot of questions and do more things by the seat of their pants. So i'm not throwing unwinnable encounters at them.
But with other groups I have been able to foreshadow encounters.And also make sure there is an obvious out. So the players can see if a monster is clearly defending something,they can retreat without being chased for example.
Or there is the big pile of minis technique. The players are get nervous if they see I have a large number of monsters prepped, and become more cautious .