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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fuzzlewump" data-source="post: 4302593" data-attributes="member: 63214">Hmm, your response was so brief Nellisir you left me nothing to work with, speaking only to the effect of 'no, you're wrong.' I look forward to a more in depth response to my points. There is definitely a way I can argue with what Storm Raven is saying here. Alright, let's get this straight. In core 3.5 skills were something tacked on to classes that really had nothing to do with the abilities they had. Why do I say tacked on? Well, that's just it, the skills themselves didn't have anything to do with the class that took them, except for of course the rogue with his sole ability of finding and disabling traps. You may say well, "Knowledge(Arcana) had everything to do with being a wizard," and I'll say no, not really. High intelligence had everything to do with being a wizard, not the knowledge skill, not even spellcraft. If anything, concentration was the bread and butter and that only had COMBAT uses. Or in other words, you don't have to roll concentration in the king's chamber while your negociating with him. Anyway, the point isn't to argue about what is useful and what is not here, I'm just saying the wizard didn't need his skills to cast his spells.Now, in 4th edition, some skills are required in order to use the out of combat wizard spells, Rituals. Notably Arcana, not sure about others. Rogues need to use thievery to unlock doors and disable traps. So, skills have a bigger role out of combat, even if only slightly. Let's take it a step further.The barbarian/fighter of 3.5 likely has a low intelligence, preferring to have strength and constitution instead. So, they have maybe 1 or 2 trained skills to level up each level. So, they can climb and jump outside of combat and that's about it. In 4th edition, each class has around 4 trained skills no matter what your intelligence is. So, now in 4th edition, the group as a whole has more out of combat options than ever. Skills play a role for every single player at the table. So where is the restriction? Where is the "4E has no out of combat?" So, now considering that each class now has access to skills, how can you possibly say that the only element that matters is how quickly a character and bash heads? Because that's what powers are centered on? Some utility powers increase the power of skills, out of combat. If anything, I should be arguing that 3.5 focuses on combat. I look at the table for the core classes and see Saves, Base Attack Bonus, Feats, Special Abilities, nothing to do with skills. Now, I'm not arguing that, because I don't really care which one is more focused on combat, but you're being completely unfair in your judgment of 4E. To get it straight, 3E was fun to play too, in the same way that 2E was fun to play, but I defend the new edition now because I play it and have fun with it, in combat and out. I look forward to your response.</blockquote>

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