D&D 4E You Don't Need a Healer in 4E... Yeah Right!

[keterys]

I don't have a leader in one of my groups - they just use some more expendable healing abilities and one of them took a couple cleric abilities (a utility and warpriest paragon encounter ability is it at 11th, I believe)

It does mean that they're more likely to run out of their 'daily' healing abilities, whereas a leader makes it more based on encounter. But it's been totally fine - their damage and control output is huge, with enemies often unable to attack at all, or dying before they can do significant damage.

 

[Harr]

Having run 13 4e sessions for a party consisting of an Avenger Paladin, a Rogue, a Warlock and a Wizard, I can confirm with no doubt whatsoever that as long as the party has access to enough potions (2-3 per member per milestone, roughly) as party has no need of any kind of 'healer' type class at any moment.

 

[ZetaStriker]

A DM that constantly throws +2 or +3 encounters against a leaderless party is just going to a TPK in the first place. It's a bad example. Scaling encounters closer to the party's level and giving out enough healing potions for everyone should be more than enough to cover their bases.

At least, I hope. I'll be running a game for a Tiefling Paladin, Tiefling Wizard and Eladrin Warlock pretty soon, and plan to put this to the test. As far as I know, it should work... but I'll let you know how it goes. XD

 

[Maltese Changeling]

A DM that constantly throws +2 or +3 encounters against a leaderless party is just going to a TPK in the first place. It's a bad example. Scaling encounters closer to the party's level and giving out enough healing potions for everyone should be more than enough to cover their bases.

Heh--this is exactly what happened to us last night in our playtest of the new rules. The DM threw what amounted to a 750 xp encounter (1 goblin hexer, 3 goblin warriors, 1 skeleton, 1 hobgoblin soldier, and 4 goblin cutters) against a party of 4 level 1 characters (dragonborn paladin, human wizard, halfling rogue, and dwarf fighter). Outnumbered 10 to 4 and facing 3 level 3 critters, the party just didn't have the healing to keep going. Once our surges and action points were gone, that was that. Only the halfling made it out alive (by running as fast as he could).

 

[Iron Sky]

We haven't tried playing without a Leader yet, but I will say that having one of each class in a 4 member group makes things super smooth.

We've fought about 13 encounters (getting us a bit about 60% of the way to level 2) and never had anyone drop to 0 or less(lowest was 3 hp a couple times). Maul Paladin + Heal/Buff Cleric + Brutal Rogue + Wand AoE focused Wizard.

We've fought everything from a monster 6 levels higher than us + 2 allies about our level to 16 minions our level to an elite + 8 minions and about everything in between. The level +6 mob was kinda scary since he did 50 points of damage to the paladin in two rounds, with 10 more dealt by his buddies, but even then the paladin was never bloodied for more than one round and it died(twice - special ability) in about 3 rounds...

No Leader might be doable if you tailor the game specifically to the party by dropping tons of extra potions or making all the fights easier, but if you want to be able to take on all comers(and even take on several fights worth 125% of your party's xp value without blowing a daily and without a long rest), it's tough to beat a balanced party and I can't imagine replacing the leader with anything else.

Even with potions, I wouldn't think they'd cut it at higher levels when they're only healing 10 hp at the cost of two minor actions, no matter how many you have (even with Quick Draw).

As always though, YMMV.

 

[N0Man]

I'm mixed on this. On one hand, it really is rough to play without a leader. My current game is leaderless. On the other hand, they've managed to survive (though 1 or 2 people ALWAYS end up unconscious).

However, I feel that they could have probably done a lot better if some were better at tactics and such. Also, taking a leader multiclass feat would have gone a long way.

I think everyone in a leaderless party who has at least a 13 Str or Wis should take at least the basic multiclass feat for either Warlord or Cleric.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Yeah my players are "button mashers". They don't really understand how to set themselves up for dailies, often just repeat the same at-will attacks (and then complain about boredom and combat length) in difficult fights, and only use action points when prompted. We've got a paladin/warlord, fighter/warlock, rogue/ranger, and wizard/cleric (yes, that is all 8 classes; no, it still doesn't matter).

Someone hits the ground every single fight, no matter what. I'll bloody the 3rd level fighter in the surprise round with like 2 level 1 goblin blackblades...then he'll miss his brute strike, second wind, miss the brute strike again, forget marks, forget his regeneration...4e combat is a lot more fiddly than I first thought. I can't really blame them for rolling poorly, but hey. When you park in the goblin hexer's Vexing Cloud and wonder why you can't hit anything...

So bad tactics are very deadly to a group. That sucks for people who don't like playing tactically. I guess I could just keep trying to give them pointers (you know, if you guys move out of that cloud and kill the leader it will go away and he'll stop blinding you and making you puke on yourself every time you move), but I always feel like I'm giving the fight away if I do that.

My players is dumb ><

 

[Blackbrrd]

Old Gumphrey: you might want to explain the effects you are using, the characters are supposed to know what powers are currently in effect, so you are supposed to (after the flavour) say: and if you don't get out of the vexing cloud you get a penalty to hit and you can't move without puking on yourself...

It does sound like your players are a bit confused, you are right about that though...

 

[Minigiant]

I'd say it's rougher to play without a striker. Taking a brute down in 3 rounds is so much better than 5. When the strikers miss repeatedly, everyone notices (and uses their second wind). "Ah c'mom. It isn't dead yet?"

 

[Fifth Element]

They're minor actions specifically because the designers know that healing is a subopimal option if it comes at the cost as an offensive action.

And since leaders' healing abilities do not cost an offensive action, they are not suboptimal in 4E. What's your point?