You grab someone, now what?

[KarinsDad]

This was my main question; I probably could have been clearer. Where does it say that one hand is consumed in maintaining the grab? That makes sense, but from my reading, all you have to do is stay next to the guy, spend a minor action to maintain, and succeed on subsequent escape attempts. Otherwise you're free to do whatever you want.

You must have at least one hand free to make a grab attempt.

This does not explicitly state that one needs to keep using that hand to maintain the grab, that is a common sense inference.

Just like holding a weapon does not state that you have to use a hand to continue using it.


As to the "can I use a power while maintaining a grab", why not?

Sustaining a grab is a minor action, no different than any other minor action.

So yes, a PC Wizard could grab someone and then blast them with a Power, all in the same round if he used an Action Point.

The thing about Grab is that it is so easy to Escape that it's typically not worth it.

Any creature (even PCs) that has Skill Training in Acrobatics or Athletics typically also has a decent ability score to go with it. So, the chances of Escaping from a Grab for those types of creatures against same level opponents is typically > 70% (a mathematical flaw in the game system, the creature escaping gets a +5 for Skill Training that the defense does not have).

The only creatures worth grabbing are ones not Skill Trained in Acrobatics or Athletics like most PC Wizards.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

The thing about Grab is that it is so easy to Escape that it's typically not worth it.

I agree that it's not the best option, but there are situations where it is worthwhile, such as when you want to do something on your action (like spending an AP to get an extra action and drag him to a pit), or to ensure a target can't use an interrupt action to move before his next turn (like grabbing a shifty goblin or kobold dragonshield).

 

[AverageTable]

While maintaining his grab, the grabber cannot do anything that requires two hands, such as a wielding a two-handed weapon. The free hand used to start the grab remains occupied in maintaining the grab. The grabber only has one hand free while maintaining a grab (although his victim still has two hands free).

The rules do not explicitly state this; but they obviously intend it. Moreover, common sense demands it. Anyone who argues that he can use both hands freely while maintaining a grab should be summarily shot.

And yes, there is nothing stopping a character from grabbing an enemy with one hand and then casting a spell at someone else. Any action that can be performed with only one hand can still be performed while grabbing someone.

In fact, I can't recall ever seeing a rule in 4th Edition that requires the use of one's hands at all during spellcasting. Using an implement requires that one wield that implement in one's hands; but simply casting the spell (without an implement) can, I believe, technically be done even if both of one's hands are occupied.

I think I vaguely recall the books saying something to the effect that "the DM may rule that a character cannot cast a spell if he is unable to move or speak", or something like that. But even then, it was left as a case-by-case DM judgment. Officially, I don't think there's anything stopping a bound and gagged character from casting all spells as normal in 4th Edition.

If someone else is aware of a written rule that requires speech or freedom of movement for spellcasting, please let me know.

 

[AverageTable]

Also, as to grabbing being ineffective, the thread that Hypersmurf linked to above discusses how to handle a single character being grabbed by multiple opponents.

The rules don't say anything about this either way; but it seems safe to either require that the grabbed individual make a separate escape attempt against each grabber or that he suffer a penalty to his single escape attempt for each additional grabber (e.g. He rolls against the grabber with the highest relevant defense with a -2 penalty per additional grabber currently holding him.).

If you rule multiple grabbers in either of these ways, then it should become relatively easy to hold even a slippery opponent in place if you're willing to commit two or three characters to do so.

 

[generalhenry]

I really depends on the music playing in the background.

 

[KarinsDad]

Also, as to grabbing being ineffective, the thread that Hypersmurf linked to above discusses how to handle a single character being grabbed by multiple opponents.

The rules don't say anything about this either way; but it seems safe to either require that the grabbed individual make a separate escape attempt against each grabber or that he suffer a penalty to his single escape attempt for each additional grabber (e.g. He rolls against the grabber with the highest relevant defense with a -2 penalty per additional grabber currently holding him.).

If you rule multiple grabbers in either of these ways, then it should become relatively easy to hold even a slippery opponent in place if you're willing to commit two or three characters to do so.

I wouldn't introduce the latter house rule when the former method appears to be RAI anyway. 3 attackers = 3 escapes.

At any rate, sure. Attack the slippery Rogue with 3 Grab attackers. That's 3 standard actions that do not do damage. And as long as the Rogue is grabbed, that's 1-3 minor actions each round to maintain the grab.

Sounds like a lot of wasted actions, just to keep the Rogue pinned down and the first Push, Pull, or Shift allows him to escape.


Grab is still fairly ineffective, even against PCs without Acrobatics or Athletics (i.e. an ally Shifts the Grabbed PC and he escapes automatically).

 

[komi]

Thanks for the responses. I think I get it better now.

 

[Stogoe]

A question I have that I haven't seen addressed is this: As far as I can tell, there is nothing stopping a Wizard from grabbing an Orc and then proceeding to cast Meteor Swarm while still maintaining his hold on the Orc. Can the "grab-er" cast spells (use Arcane powers) while still maintaining his hold on the "grab-ee"?

Well, the Orc is merely immobilized - i.e, can't move, but can still attack. Any area attacks you try to call down he's gonna get a free swing at your guts.