Your character died. Big deal.

Oh. :o

As I said, it's been a while, and I only read through them once. I got the impression somehow - or misremembered, anyhow - that saving throws were gone, static defences being the replacement. Gah.

You're correct. Now attacking the will/fort/ref is just like attacking AC. A saving throw is a d20 roll taken at the end of your turn (or other times based on powers). 10+ is a save, typically removing the condition.
 

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It's almost as if this wasn't dealt with in the 1E DMG now 30 years ago
My favourite thing about that quote is that it offers a very clear account of a fortune-in-the-middle mechanic in a 30-year-old rulebook.

Yet people complain about them in 4e as if they were new to D&D! (Admittedly 4e makes them more extensive - but still, they were there way back when.)
 

Not objectively inferior, but objectively less dangerous. And, because it is known to be objectively less dangerous, less easy to suspend disbelief about the dangers involved.
This is the bit I don't get. Less dangerous to whom? Not less dangerous to the player, who is (I hope) not especially in danger at any gaming table. And within the conetext of the gameworld, not less dangerous to the PC, whose world is as full of peril as the next one. There is a reduced likelihood in the real world of the player having to change PC due to PC death - but the claim that this harms suspension of disbelief is not one I accept as anything like a universal truth.

my experience with 2e (which actively encouraged DMs to save characters who would otherwise die) is that this causes players to engage less with the gameworld.
If I had to diagnose a cause for disengagement in this sort of 2e play, it would be the railroading. Death flag mechanics expressly avoid railroading and engage the player by fostering protagonism rather than deprotagonising.

But that doesn't alter the fact that a survival-guaranteed game can be played using a survival-not-guaranteed ruleset (generally by RAW), but the reverse is not true.
As I said upthread, this has the problem that it preserves game/metagame tranpsarency at the cost of removing the danger in the gameworld. Death flag mechanics reduce game/metagame transparency but permit the gameworld to remain chock full of peril.

Actually, since books and movies were brought up previously, you should be well aware that this same criticism has been levelled against the type of storytelling (and far more than once) in those media where it is obvious that the hero will survive from the first page.
The only adventure type stories I have read in the past many years are REH Conan and Kull stories, in which I do know from the first page that the protagonist will survive. What is key is that the obviousness isn't itself part of the fiction. As I noted upthread, death flag play requires the same sort of non-breaking of the fourth wall. If players want to go all Order of the Stick (bathing in lava, etc) the game has broken down (just as an AD&D game has broken down when the fighter describes his daily routine of jumping off a 200' cliff before breakfast, then having his friendy cleric Heal him up).

Oh, and for the record, strenuously defending that purist-for-system 1e AD&D play is both possible and satisfying is not in any way shape or form denying that your non-purist game is impossible, or less satisfying for you.

<snip>

It is this sort of problem, actually, that made me enter this thread: "I can't use SoD well, therefore it is broken wrongbadfun." When a defense saying, in effect, that it is not broken wrongbadfun becomes "either denying that non-purist-for-system 1st ed AD&D play is possible, or alternatively denying that it is satisfying" there is something wrong.
Fair enough. I'm personally sympathetic to some of Hussar's arguments that SoD has problems that go beyond implementation by poor GMs, but that's not why I'm here. I'm here to defend the claim that death-flag play can be fully meaningful roleplaying without lava-bathing nonsense or other failures of suspension of disbelief.

But, in terms of setting up a role-playing game for general consumption, a survival-not-guaranteed game can be fully satisfying for all involved if the Gm is good at his job. I have experienced this, from both sides of the screen, with hundreds of different players and dozens of different GMs. Conversely, every player in your survival-guaranteed better be top-notch to avoid a "No pull on the Jenga tower" game.
This again is an empirical claim that I'm not sure about. WoTC are taking a punt with 4e that it's not as hard as you think - it just requires a different mind-set (or, to use some jargon, a different set of metagame priorities).
 

A general observation: purist-for-system/Gygaxian/Pulsipherian 1st ed AD&D-style play leads to the sort of game that Hong derides as "Advance Squad Leader" - an emphasis on preparation, small unit tactics, exploration as the locus of play rather than encounters, etc.

For those who like it this can be fun, but it differs a great deal from actual pre-modern types, who tended (on the whole) to have different attitudes to death (their own as well as that of others) and whose processes for everything, including warfare and exploration, tended to be less rationalised (see eg Weber's discussion of the rationalisation of colonial merchant enterprises in his introduction to The Protestant Ethic; or Foucault's discussion of these "normalising" processes in Discipline and Punish).

So modern players, playing a 1st-ed style game, won't produce an outcome that actually resembles the behaviour of medievals. We'll get modern soldiers in medieval dress.

An interesting feature of REH's Conan and Kull characters is that they are in a certain fashion pre-modern in their behaviour - they act rather than think, unlike the effetec "civilised" people who surround them. (In other respects, however, particularly in their attitudes to religion and other traditions, they are quintessentially modern.)

Death-flag play is not the only way to produce RPGing that more closely emulates the pre-modern. Nor is it by any means guaranteed to produce such roleplaying. But implemented in the right sort of way it might be one way to do it.
 


This is the bit I don't get. Less dangerous to whom? Not less dangerous to the player, who is (I hope) not especially in danger at any gaming table. And within the conetext of the gameworld, not less dangerous to the PC, whose world is as full of peril as the next one. There is a reduced likelihood in the real world of the player having to change PC due to PC death - but the claim that this harms suspension of disbelief is not one I accept as anything like a universal truth.


I wouldn't say universal, no, but I would say that it is inherently more difficult to suspend disbelief about the potential harm the PC can face in the gameworld when you know the limits of that harm. The more limited the potential harm, the harder it is to suspend belief that it is unlimited.

Moreover, the death-flag relies upon every player at the table using the mechanic as it is meant to be used. This has the same problem as the "locked door & two tools" problem from the other thread. If the player has the ability to specify that one of the tools is a key, if and only if that player has some reason not to make one tool the key will a more creative solution be presented.

I have no doubt that a group that all "gets" the death-flag mechanic can enjoy this style of play. I wouldn't want to take your susvival-guaranteed away from you, any more than I want my SoD taken away from me.

But I wouldn't recommend a death-flag for the general gaming public, and I certainly wouldn't want to use it in a pick-up game with people I didn't know well.


RC
 

This again is an empirical claim that I'm not sure about. WoTC are taking a punt with 4e that it's not as hard as you think - it just requires a different mind-set (or, to use some jargon, a different set of metagame priorities).

I would actually like to see WotC put out an edition with a death-flag, and see how it was received. That would be a truly empirical test.


RC
 


It is this sort of problem, actually, that made me enter this thread: "I can't use SoD well, therefore it is broken wrongbadfun."
As someone who argued against you on this topic, I will say once again this is a terrible misrepresentation of the argument.

"I don't like SoD, and here's why" is not the same thing as "I don't like SoD, therefore anyone who does is wrong."

If I had to characterize anyone's arguments as asserting badwrongfun, it would be you, since you repeatedly argued that anyone who disliked SoD just wasn't playing the game right.
 


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