Your character died. Big deal.

[Vyvyan Basterd]

[When I play] I enjoy the challenge of keeping my character alive. There must be a risk of death. The fun for me comes from using intelligent strategy and tactics to stay alive. Save-or-die instakills usually preclude the use of strategy or tactics, so a death by those means is not fun play for me.

 

[Barastrondo]

You can’t control how your fellow gamers get their fun. And you shouldn’t try to impose your values on them.

Essentially. Because there's always a third choice between "play this game in a way that embraces frequent and random mortality" and "play another game" — "play this game with different people who are more in tune with what you want out of it."

The whole "Suck it up and play like I want you to" argument gets thrown around almost as if it would win the poster and those who agree with him more potential players. I would argue that it wins fewer. You don't convince more people to play the game you want them to by telling them how wrong or weak they are, you just convince them not to play with you or people like you.

 

[Psion]

Psion: If you want my opinion, I think you're misreading 5th Element. Fifth Element has not quoted you in this thread, nor has he labeled your position a false dichotomy. He's been replying mostly to justanobody and used the false dichotomy comment directly to Shilsen, not you.

He was commenting on Shilsen's response to me. Hence the perceived implication.

But he's clarified, so let's not dwell on it.

 

[Umbran]

My guess would be that resurrection magic was introduced in response to the high level of arbitrary death. Arbitrary death is inherent in the mechanics of the early editions, so it seems unlikely that resurrection magic came first.

Well, which came first is only interesting if you consider there to be a cause-and-effect relationship involved. If they introduced raise dead because they found characters died too often, then it is interesting. But correlation does not imply causation.

I don't think we have much evidence for (or against) that causation here. These weren't guys who were applying modern design and game science to their work, because it was thirty years ago and RPGs were brand spanking new, and nobody had experience enough to have "design principles" for them. Raising the dead could be in the game just because it was cool, rather than because gameplay experience called for it.

Anyone know offhand if the Chainmail fantasy rules had ways to bring units back after they were destroyed?

 

[cougent]

Through the years I have lost many a PC, but the two that come to mind immediately as bothering me the most were both hp damage death from the (stupid) mistakes of fellow players. They were not from save or die situations, they were not from an over zealous deathmonger DM, they were not even from my own stupid action or inaction (well other than being in a party that killed me!)

It was the utter helplessness that made them traumatic... not even a save chance to forego it. I can see a save-or-die situation being traumatic, but for me the last chance save alleviates it enough to make it acceptable. As mentioned earlier, I enjoy the challenge of trying to stay alive in a hostile world. Sometimes I sucede and sometimes I fail... and sometimes my own archer shot me in the back!

I know that is not for everyone and as a DM I try to give my players options that will avoid death. I do have a standing preface though that:
"Although I am NOT trying to kill your PC's; neither am I overtly trying to keep them alive either."

 

[billd91]

Sure it does. What matters is the perception that you couldn't do anything to prevent it. If you get into melee, at least you have a chance to whack the bad guys as they're trying to whack you. Even if you fail there, you at least had a chance. And death in melee is generally by degree, where your hit points get lower and lower, giving you chances to break off and flee (though certainly not always).

I'd have to say that's a false notion as well. In a game where not all of the encounters are level-appropriate, you still might not have a real chance to survive a fight, nor flee once the fight has really started.

 

[billd91]

I am wondering which came first in 3e.

Did the numerous ways of raising a PC from the dead come about as a solution to the many sudden death scenarios running around, or did the designers evidently feel that it was okay to run save-or-dies frequently due to the prevalence of resurrection effects?

A lot of stuff, pretty obviously, is legacy from 1e and 2e. But with a lot fewer save or die stuff in 3e AND more ways ameliorate issues, I'd have to say that a lot of ways to bring PCs back (or protect them) were generated by save or die effects being in the game and not the other way around.
And once design of 3e got into full swing, we can see the debut of effects coupled with remedies. I'm thinking here, particularly, of stat damage and lesser restoration.

 

[billd91]

You really see no difference between:

(A) Your character perishing after a pitched toe-to-toe battle with a vile opponent, and

(B) "I open the door."
"Make a Fort save."
"I got a 1."
"You're dead."

So you can stop the condescension any time now and try to understand the point that's being made.

I see a difference... I just don't think I'd make too much about it.
A death in a more dramatic way, in a knock-down, drag-out fight, feels better, more worthwhile than a blown save out of the blue. For that reason, I don't mind save or die effects going largely away.

But if the problem really is the "unfunness" of sitting out with a dead PC waiting to make up a new character and generate a way to bring him into the action, the difference between the two is very minor. You're sitting out no matter what you do.

 

[Henry]

No you are creating dilemma where there isn't any. Death is death, plain and simple. Trying to categorize it is silly. Your bad luck in making a choice, is no different than your bad luck in rolling dice. Either can lead to a quick death. The rest is moot.

There is a difference to me, though -- a bad streak of luck, versus several bad rolls or choices in turn. If you fail three saves, that's tough -- it just wasn't your day. If three or four monsters hit you in turn, and that kills you, it's rough, but c'est la vie.

One bad roll taking you to dead, though -- that's harder for most folks to swallow. If you went to Las Vegas, and were on a hot streak, then lost it all to one roll, how would you feel? Now, compare that to going to Vegas, and losing your stake over three or four bets? It's a difference in perception, even if it's not a difference in outcome.

Suck it up and make the new character and stop crying about how you died.

A little harsh way to phrase it, but I understand the main point. Keep in mind though how much it takes in some RPGs to build a character - it can take in some game systems a good 30 minutes or more to make a new PC. In some (Basic D&D, for example) it can take all of five minutes. That's a big difference in investment versus play time. Then you have situations where it takes forty-five minutes to an hour for a DM to reintroduce a PC into the game - have you watched a D&D game that you weren't playing in for an hour and realized how dry as dust that is? It is to me, at least. I can't even watch my own taped sessions after the fact.

On the other side, I'm of the old school myself when it comes to level of attachment to characters. If my PC dies, I'm as happy with coming up with a new one as I am playing the one I have, as long as the game itself goes on. Having my PC eaten alive by rot scarabs is more fun than a productive fishing trip, to me. I'm sick, I know.

 

[Ourph]

I noticed this oddity yesterday: Playing 4e, and my stupid dwarf is making death saves again... or in this case, failing death saves... So after I've failed two, the warlock stabilizes me. So now, when my turn comes up, I don't have anything to do!

PS

We noticed this too and thought it kind of sucked (especially since 4e combats are lasting about twice the number of rounds as 3e combats) so we made the house rule that you keep rolling after you're stabilized. You can't get worse, but if you roll a 20 you get better.