Your character died. Big deal.

[Hussar]

Hrm, in the Savage Tide AP, at one point one of the BBEG's sends a hit squad after the party. A number of bodaks riding templated undead dinosaurs teleport in on the party at some random point.

From the context of the game it makes 100% sense. The bad guys have these kinds of resources available. It also means that the party is now in the SOD Room with no warning.

Guess it does exist after all.

 

[roguerouge]

In TV, everything is scripted. You don't have main characters dying random deaths because the director mandated that it be so.

Correction. They don't die random deaths because it is collaboratively decided that they will not by the creator, the staff writers, the actors, their agents, the networks, and the threat of critics and fans smearing your show if you decide to prove that death can be random for no dramatic purpose other than that proof.

TV is no more the creation of an individual than a DnD game is the sole creation of the DM. They are both collaborative serial story-telling art forms. It's completely apt. Because the real point was that there are alternatives to random death as a story telling principle and that billions of people find those alternatives incredibly appealing.

 

[roguerouge]

Edit: Oh, and I think the TV comparison is a really bad one. You watch TV, you don't play it. You have no control over the TV show. At no point in time do your feelings matter in the context of that show, nor can you do any action to change things the way they are. Watching TV is, well, watching it - you just sit there and listen/watch what other people are doing, without any input or output from yourself. That just goes back to my first post of "This ain't no writer's workshop; if all you want to do is tell stories about yourself, go to fanfiction.net."

Only if you assume that I was talking primarily about consuming television rather than the two things that I was talking about: decades of audience demand for stories not involving random deaths of important characters and that the collaborative process of creating television bears some similarity to the collaborative process of creating a DnD game. (I will admit, however, that I assumed that most people know that television is incredibly collaborative, which may have been a bad assumption.)

Also, I recommend taking a look at the Buffy the Vampire Slayer role playing game for one example of how serial narrative techniques can be usefully adapted to role playing games.

 

[Hussar]

My whole beef with Save or Die boils down to two things.

First, when it's a SoD gaze attack, it's not really SoD, it's just die. When EVERYONE has to make a saving throw, every round, someone's going to die. The chance of death is extremely high. Too high for me.

Second, SoD takes the notion of balanced encounter out into the pasture and puts a gun in its ear. It's not a balanced encounter. It can't be. If the party is prepared for the encounter, then it's a cakewalk. If the party is unprepared, it's a death sentence. It's just way too binary for me.

As for the notion that one save is the same as three saves spread over multiple rounds, I just don't see it. When you have only one save, it's either yes or no. Alive or dead. Totally binary. When you have three saves, then you have (on average) 12-15 other actions by the rest of the party and yourself before you die. It's really no different than a creature that can do lots of damage that tags one target for the entire fight. You have loads of options that can change your death sentence - kill the monster, run away, magical help, mundane options, heck surrender might work.

With earlier edition SoD, it's one roll. Do you live or die? Or, do you have the blocking card and therefore make the encounter totally not interesting?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I accept that RPGs are just games.

And with almost any RPG, I accept the possibility that my PC will not get to run the entire race. However, that doesn't mean that I'm not attached to a PC, and I may be ticked off that he or she or it bit the big one. Or I may not be- not all of my PCs are created equal- some are mere scribbles on paper, others seem much more real to me.

Depending upon the campaign, the game and my relationship to the PC in question, I may start over or I may try to get my PC brought back from oblivion.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Again, I agree. However, I don't think that the randomness needs to be temprered only through game mechanics. Part of good play, in the old school sense anyway, is to temper randomness through the choices that you make.

This is something I have said before in another thread, but it seems to require repeating here.

A major part of the "tempering randomness" requires the DM to be aware of the pitfalls of Save or Die and to include scenes or narration that allow the PCs to figure out the danger (and their preperations against it). The DM doesn't have to force the PCs to figure this out, but he basically needs to hold up some warning signs.

The problem is that the game doesn't tell the DM so or force it. Why is Save or Die a part of the mechanics then, but not the "Warning Signs"?
If the entire scenario leading up to a "fair" Save or Die encounter requires the DM to prepare the party for it (in giving them chances to figure the danger out if they are smart enough), why shouldn't we make the final part, "Save or Die" not also a part of the DMs responsibility. Why can't the DM not just create the final "Save or Die" step himself.

This way, there is no cheap excuse "But the RAW allows me to use Save or Die this way". It is obvious whether the DM was using Save or Die "responsibly" or not. And anyone unaware of the pitfalls of Save or Die effects will not "accidentally" use them just because the system provides them.

 

[Protagonist]

This is something I have said before in another thread, but it seems to require repeating here.

A major part of the "tempering randomness" requires the DM to be aware of the pitfalls of Save or Die and to include scenes or narration that allow the PCs to figure out the danger (and their preperations against it). The DM doesn't have to force the PCs to figure this out, but he basically needs to hold up some warning signs.

The problem is that the game doesn't tell the DM so or force it. Why is Save or Die a part of the mechanics then, but not the "Warning Signs"?
If the entire scenario leading up to a "fair" Save or Die encounter requires the DM to prepare the party for it (in giving them chances to figure the danger out if they are smart enough), why shouldn't we make the final part, "Save or Die" not also a part of the DMs responsibility. Why can't the DM not just create the final "Save or Die" step himself.

This way, there is no cheap excuse "But the RAW allows me to use Save or Die this way". It is obvious whether the DM was using Save or Die "responsibly" or not. And anyone unaware of the pitfalls of Save or Die effects will not "accidentally" use them just because the system provides them.

Random encounter tables frequently have SoD monsters on them as well, which makes it harder for a DM to remember to give plenty of hints regarding the SoD. Whenever I use a random encounter it means that I didn't have time to prepare one for this part of the adventure, which means I'll probably have my first look (in a while. I browse through each MM when I buy it, of course) at a particular monster the moment I want to insert it into my game.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Focusing the game on players using their wits to avoid combats with dire chances simply does not require save-or-die effects.

It's considerably easier to make such decisions when they are built into the game.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Can I also point out that its odd to assume that its ok for the DM not to play certain monsters to the fullest (ie, that the BBEG wouldn't capture a bodak or basilisk to drop on intruders, or hire a medusa as guard but not give hints of such things so that adventurers would find out) but that its inconceivable to move such meta-rules out into the open with the no deaths rule.

How, exactly, does one keep a baskilisk, a boadak, or a medusa, without anyone knowing it, and without leaving any sign of its existence?

 

[Protagonist]

How, exactly, does one keep a baskilisk, a boadak, or a medusa, without anyone knowing it, and without leaving any sign of its existence?

Gate spell and a big dungeon?