Your Magic Is Killing Us

[prosfilaes]

I see your point, but quite frankly I'd like to make spellcasting a bit more random and bit more... exciting. Right now if you're facing a standard orc grunt and you have that magic missile (with triple "warheards") prepared, there's not much excitement. With weapons you always have excitement due to the natural 1's.

A magic missile is an unusual spell in that it doesn't have a touch attack or saving throw. But seriously, a 5th level character (triple warheads) isn't going to be excited by a standard orc grunt. A 5th level wizard in a dead magic zone is about an equal combat with the orc; a 5th level fighter has a 80% chance of hitting and is guaranteed to kill the orc if he hits, and it would take several unlikely hits for the orc to down the fighter.

Arcane magic should be a bit more like experimental science. It should be that only Boccob knows how magic missile works and no one else really can master it fully. What is arcane magic anyway? So in other words: I'd bring on some sort of wild magic to the game. Such as natural 1s and fumble-tables.

Fumble tables have their features, but I don't see why you'd add them for magic and not normal combat.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

A magic missile is an unusual spell in that it doesn't have a touch attack or saving throw. But seriously, a 5th level character (triple warheads) isn't going to be excited by a standard orc grunt. A 5th level wizard in a dead magic zone is about an equal combat with the orc; a 5th level fighter has a 80% chance of hitting and is guaranteed to kill the orc if he hits, and it would take several unlikely hits for the orc to down the fighter.

Fumble tables have their features, but I don't see why you'd add them for magic and not normal combat.

I feel that there should always be a fighting chance for everyone. This puny orc should have at least a snowball chance in hell whether fired upon by arrows or magic missile. With arrows such chance exists, but not with magic missile. It's my view that I'd like to correct this. Don't get me wrong, I like the game how it is, but auto-killing and auto-success is sometimes just... meh.

"Fumble-table" is always a dangerous word because it seems to make people a bit agitated, but basically I'd like to see such feature with arcane magic since I want it to be a little bit "experimental". No spell is ever perfect and they have a certain element of randomness. I'm not saying I wouldn't want normal combat to have fumble tables; It just intrigues me that every spell would have some mystical element that is not fully known... It does leave avenues for some interesting tables, doesn't it?

 

[LurkAway]

Let me get all over-simplistic here:
When you attack with a weapon, no matter how epic you are or what sort of artifact-weapon you're using, there's always a 5% miss chance.

I'd like all magic to be like that too. 5% of the time your spells just don't work - at all. I don't find it too harsh and IMO it's a sufficient drawback.

IMO, that makes magic "the same". Magic is called magic because it's different, has different advantages and limitations. For example, you can create light the mundane way -- light a torch, need to have the torch in your backpack, flames can be extinguished, there's an x% chance of lighting the flint each round, etc. -- and then there's magic light -- using whatever magical laws seem to be compelling for the story.

In gameplay, I think magic should be balanced with sword fighting, but using an entirely different track; otherwise, magic becomes a sword in a funny suit and that feels superficial and non-compelling for me.

 

[steeldragons]

I did not generate a different magical system, per se, but areas of my world where the "laws of magic" function differently.

The greatest/largest area where this is so is my setting's desert empire. The desert was created by a huge cataclysmic influx of arcane and divine energies being manifested in tandem. As such, while I haven't had to use that are much in play (odd how adventurers will do just about anything not to travel through desert! haha), my concept was that the desert in general and a large section deep within was essentially "wild magic" or, maybe the term nowadays would be "chaos magic".

When creating this, I deemed that any arcane spell casting occurring within the desert suffered an automatic 50% chance of "alteration" (included in the random chart are several percentages of "nothing happens", along with various other effects of various detriment). Wizards native to the desert empire/tribes are immune to this effect (either due to a natural immunization -i.e. a mutation of their ancestors' presence when the cataclysm occurred- or decades of working with the uncertain magic). However, since magic works differently outside the desert, they assume a 25% chance of spell "malfunction" if they are outside the desert or another "wild magic" area.

Now, 50% doesn't sound like much. But for a spellcaster from outside the desert, who is used to their spells doing what they're supposed to, having things go awry half the time, with no telling if or how they might, is a definite handicap.

[EDIT] The 50% is mitigated by caster and spell level. -5% per caster level over 5th. +5% per spell level over 2nd. So a 8th level wizard trying to cast a 3rd level spell would have a 40% (50 -15% for caster level. +5% for 3rd level spell) chance of spell mishap. That same mage casting a 1st level spell would have only a 35% chance of malfunction.

Obviously, this has led to only the most powerful non-Thelitian mages (unless they are laden with reliable magic items) to dare to adventure within. Considering there are only a handful of mages exceeding, say, 10th or 12th level in my world, it is a rare and still dangerous thing to find a non-Thelitian wizard traversing the desert empire.
[/EDIT]

Items work just fine, essentially reasoning that magic items are "processors" of the energies they require to function...or, in the case of magical/enchanted weapons, "charged items", and the like, the fact that they are/have their own "stable battery" of arcane energy to work with. So a wizard, from outside Thelitia, with a few useful items is not completely without resources...just sorely bereft of reliable spellcasting.

Druidic magic is all but useless. The Great Spell essentially annihilated the "natural/Green magic" of the world in that area.

While, again, I haven't had to use it in play, I believe I have a note around somewhere in my setting material that 1st and 2nd level spells for a period of days equal to the druid's level are available...before they exhaust their personal reserve of natural energies.

3rd and higher spells, I reasoned, require some "drawing"/harnessing on Orea's natural energies...which the desert does not have. 1st and 2nd level spells can be summoned "at will" by druids in my game [EDIT] (i.e. they do not need to "memorize" those spells at the beginning of the day, but can cast as many/as needed as their daily allotment allows) [/EDIT]. So consider it using up the druid's own personal reserve of power before spells simply do not function.

Divine casting works as normal (lending to the rise of the clerical sects as an extremely powerful political force within the desert empire).

I have also used other smaller areas of magical alteration: places where, perhaps, Necromancy and Conjuration work fine but other types suffer random effects or don't work at all, Divination "blind" spots, etc... that are the result of some ancient curse or placed by some fabled wizard or powerful entity, places of large magical outpouring/battles/alteration in the past, whatever. These, however, are usually quite localized (a single "dungeon" or castle or even just a single floor or room within a stronghold, etc.)

So, I guess the point is, there are ways to make magic "dangerous" or "unpredictable" without having to generate an entire new system of magic working.

Another way of working this in, as a world-wide phenomenon, would be an outlining of the concept of "ley lines" across your setting. The closer to the lines/points of power, the better/more magic works for the caster. The further away, a mage might be hard-pressed/exhausted just by casting a 1st level spell, but completely unable to summon enough power to cast a 3rd or 4th...or some such.

Again, this goes more to setting-fluff/flavor than system/"crunch." But just throwing it out there as an option.

Fun topic/thread, though!
Have fun and happy [random] casting.
--Steel Dragons

 

[steeldragons]

There is, of course, the "Magic=Radiation" alternative.

Now, how badly this effects either just the caster and/or those around him in general would be something for you to decide...i.e. just how "deadly" you want the working of magic to be.

Does a caster have a life expectancy of months or years...or even days (or hours!), in the case of very powerful magics? Does the level of the spell effect how dangerous the "exposure" is? Do wizards/sorcerors/warlocks/whatever have means to "offset" this exposure...knowledge of how to "dampen" the radiation effects? Is that protection something they all strive for even as they strive to increase their mastery/power? Is it something they "learn" to do or some material/device/items all mages seek out...or must construct at some point in their careers?

It is an interesting concept, though I've never taken the time to delevop a "system" to work with it. But I've often thought of the idea...magic is, afterall (in my game, at least) the summoning/harnessing of "arcane energies", bent to the will of the caster (through the ancient/forgotten/occult words/gestures/formulae) to the desired effect.

Consistent exposure to these un-/super-/preter-natural energies, it would seem, could easily be likened to one taking a shower in a nuclear reactor.

Again, just more to think on. Do with it what you will.
--SD

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hmm... Off the top of my head, systems that do this include WHFRP 2e, WHFRP 3e, and GURPS Umana. And they mostly do well at making magic scary and something people don't use as a first resort.

 

[Stormonu]

With spell casters most of them get a finite amount of spells and then you are done for the day. Let's not forget some spells require rolling to hit and if you miss bye bye spell. There are creatures who have spell resistance and if you don't get through that bye bye spell. Now you want to add another level of possibly failure. If you have to combat cast and you don't make it bye bye spell.

This is a good point in that pre 4E, the spellcasters have finite resources, whereas the martial characters generally only have a limitation of running out of hit points.

However, many spells allow for abilities far beyond the skill of the martial types; I can't think of a martial ability that can match the fury of a meteor storm on multiple opponents at once, for example. Then there's things like teleport, charm/dominate and divinations that don't have any kind of parallel on the martial side.

It's primarily when these spells get whipped out that I'd expect to see drawbacks; 3E generally tried to use XP & gold limitations, 4E uses casting time & gold. Personally, I don't like these approaches.

What I'm interested in would be something akin to:

* Casting a divination to learn the enemy's plan, but gaining amnesia, forgetting your friends, former associates and most of your memories in return.

* Casting a charm on an enemy, but being poisoned in the process.

* Hasted actions, but great fatigue afterward

* Invisiblity drenches you in freezing, non-evaporating water, possibly causing hypothermia if you stay invisible for too long.

* Unleashing an extra lightning bolt for the day, but overcome with a severe headache that makes it difficult to concentrate

* Casting an augury to gain insight on which way to go, but an allied NPC back in town suffers an accident. Or perhaps an enemy deeper in the dungeon automatically learns of the party's presence.

With the caveat that all of these drawbacks must be endured. Getting the party cleric to cast Neutralize Poison on you would disrupt the charm; reminding the wizard of past deeds and friendships would cause part or all of the divination to be forgotten, etc.

 

[AeroDm]

My last campaign world involved an idea that all magic derived from a force (think The Force) but that it had an agenda that no one was aware of. As a result, too much magic at too early a level or too long steeped in magic led to insanity. I created a "magic score" which had the effect of moderating how much magic you had or equipped or whatever. So wizards would have a bunch of spells but avoid magic items because items weren't an efficient use of their magic score. Fighters stuck to items and so faced less risk of being corrupted, but it could still happen from time to time.

On the core question of the OP, the problem I've found is two fold. First, it requires too much subtle variance to work well. Most really neat approaches I've seen require a lot of bookkeeping. Things like magic zones where a first level spell increases the zone by 1 for 1 round, a second level spell by 2 for 2 rounds, and so on with different levels of saturation having different consequences. Even from this little example, you could see how it spirals annoyingly.

The second problem is that if you want to make it matter, it happens too frequently. The 5% miss chance idea is a great point. Say you want magic to backfire on that 5% so that it might literally kill you and your party... well, you just seriously weakened the casters. If a BBEG battle goes 5 rounds, that means one-in-four BBEG fights will have the caster hit the party with a big spell instead of the enemy. That could completely swing a combat in a way that is just going to tick a lot of people off.

 

[DMH]

http://alternityrpg.net/onlineforums/index.php?showtopic=3085

118 posts on the subject.

My personal favorite is the 3/10/08 post:

Fire magic = global heating is so obvious, I will leave it at that.

Earthquake spells actually release so much energy from the plate boundries, the core is cooling faster than otherwise. The underdark is getting chilly at the bottom and that is driving the undersea and deep underdark creatures out.

Darkness spells, when used on land or over/in water where sunlight reaches, has an impact on plant growth. Unless used a lot, the impact will be minimal, but in the rare cases it isn't, oxygen levels take a slight deep and people on mountains suffocate and people on hills feel like they live on mountains. Animal populations will also take a dip, but unless they or their prey consumes a specific species of plant, this should be minimal over a small region (say .1% worldwide).

Light spells do the opposite as well as support plants in places they can't on Earth- under ground and the deep ocean. Enough usage in urban areas willl either increase or decrease the murder rate ("Blasted mages with their glow sticks!" vs the watch being able to see more than 10 meters on a cloudless night).

Mix plant growth with light and the oxygen level goes up, potentially a lot. Fires burn hotter and rust happens faster. Mountains are colonized easier.

Mass teleportation may affect weather patterns (if air moves with the people), will affect disease spread and possibly spread of weeds and fungi (seeds and spores on people teleporting about).

And weather control, oh boy. Places with weather control cause all kinds of problems to places without, so much so that the magic might be overwhelmed occasionally and quite violently.

Water creation (rather than summoning) slowly raises the level of the oceans. Spells meant to create a lot at once (high ranks could mean several tons) cause erosion. Flooding the dungeon may have some nasty consequences elsewhere as the water bursts walls and drags bodies to rivers.

Lightning magic, over time, causes an increase in natural lightning. Metal tools and armor become unpopular.

Iron walls to turn into scrap may seem cool, but what about 10,000 years worth of scrap? Ever see the movie Soldier with that planet that is a junkyard?

Stone walls at least can be changed into soil via rock to mud. Buty keep adding it and with the underdark being there, sinkholes become more common.

Web spells don't seem so bad, but what if the webbing sticks around? Everything slowly becomes tacky and, in low lying areas, plants start to get smothered. Burning it is cool, until all the black smoke attracts the wrong attention or causes acid rain.

Good and evil energy has to have some kind of effect, though I am not sure what.

Sonic based spells slowly damage stone buildings even if they are not in the area of effect. People and animals are deafened from exposure and death comes earlier due to existing dangers.

Summoning creatures attracts their attention to the caster's world.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I think this is harder to do in D&D than some systems, because D&D magic doesn't lend itself to side effects and fumbles very well. A system where the spell "works" fine or blows up in your face is a little off, without a lot of mere failure to function in between. (Systems with degrees of success and failure, such as Runequest and some die pool systems, are a more natural fit.)

That said, the best side effects I think I have ever seen in D&D was the early potion mixing tables. You could expand that same principle to magic in general:

When you work magic alone, with no other magic going on, you've got a pretty decent shot at it working. Maybe spell resistance (or 4E miss chance or other such) is still a factor against an opponent, but other than that, it work. However, the more active magic that is going on, the more chance for the magic to mix with unpredictable effects. This could also include magic items. Shoot that ray of cold at the mundane warrior with no special equipment, and it works. Use an ice storm that includes a warrior with a flametongue, no telling what will happen.

This explains why mages do most of their research up in the tops of towers, with no one permitted in that part of the building but a well-trained apprentice or three. And perhaps divine magic doesn't suffer from this by itself when of the same type. That is, several priests of the same (or nearly the same) faith can cast healing and such all day long, with no problem. But any shielding or other active effects they have going can still be the catalyst for unpredictable results when arcane magic or opposing faith magic interacts with it.