Your take on charismatic half-orcs

Umbran said:

In general, high Charisma is easy to do without good looks. Richard Nixon - hefty presence, but in no way, shape, or form could you call the man beautiful. John Goodman - again, projects likeability like there's no tomorrow, but darned few people would cal the man "attractive".


Apropos of nothing, here's a picture of me dressed like John Goodman's character from The Big Lebowski at a Halloween party. Likeability wasn't the only thing I was projecting that night.

trick01_6.jpg


That said, when I think of high charisma, Hitler often springs to mind, and he was anything but attractive. Or Teddy Roosevelt - far from a beautiful man, but when he spoke, people listened. Plus he had a Con of about 400 or so - the man gave an hour long speech with a bullet in his lung. :)
 

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Mark said:


...physical attractiveness...

It doesn't just say attractiveness, which might lend itself to the point you are trying to make, but clearly it says physical attractiveness. The other parts of the direct quote from the Players Handbook have to do with presence.

Ah, yeah, Mark, but you're ignoring the next sentence:

"It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is percieved by others in a social seting."

So, you're trying to tell me that the shape of a nose somehow alters one's actual personal strength? That even skin tone should affect how many spells one gets per day?

Time to break out the Hammer of Reason...
<*Umbran takes out a slegdehammer, apparently of silver or mithril, with the word "Maxwell" engraved on the side of the head. He steps up to a rail-bed, and sets a spike in place by the rail*>

The phrase, "Physical attractiveness" has a couple of possible meanings:

A) Attractiveness of the physical body. Physical beauty, especially in a sexual context.
B) Attractiveness of other sorts that makes the viewer wish to get physical with the viewed.

(The difference, btw, explains phenomena like Callista Flockheart. Major sex symbol for years, despite being emaciated and unhealthy, with a body like toothpicks stuck into a tootsie roll and a face like a horse. Unless you wanna claim it was her hair that had guys drooling, she has physical attractiveness without a lot of beauty.)

<*tap, tap*>

"Physical beauty" is relative. Opinions on it vary from person to person, from culture to culture. What I think is beautiful is not the same as what Mark, or a randomly chosen woman in Japan thinks is beautiful. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

<*ping*>

The D&D stat of Charisma is not relative. Take a person with a 16 Charisma, and bring them in contact with a dwarf, and elf, an illithid, a githyanki, and a blink dog, and they'd all measure the same Charisma.

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. In fact, it's not in any part of the beholder. Look at that illustration! That thing's ugly, eyes included! But it still has a charisma of 15. Heck, in order to become a Sorcerer, the thing really has to take out that central eye, an act that pretty certainly will make it less beautiful, but won't change it's game-stat in the slightest.

<*pok*>

Beauty can be simply altered by makeup, mode of dress, and the like. But somehow there are no rules for that. Our sorcerers and bards don't need to call over hairdressers or makeup artists, or change clothes to appear just so between violent, bloody encounters to maintain effectiveness.

<*tang*>

As noted above, the idea that the shape of your nose or the curve of your hip should impact the number of spells you can cast is downright ludicrous, especially when you don't even need a nose or hips to be a sorcerer!

<*thwack*>

Thus, at best the authors intend definition B. More likely, given that charisma crosses species lines, the words are actually nonsense, left behind as a sop to all those folks who wanted to know if they should have a comliness stat.

<*thunk*>

I hereby declare the "Charisma Ain't Beauty" railway open. You are now free to travel the possibilites of pug-ugly sorcerers and your game world's Helen of Troy, most beautiful woman in the world, but with all the ability to influence people of a wet dishrag.

<*Umbran puts the hammer away in a briefcase. Snapping the case shut, the legend, "QED Railroad" becomes visible on the side.*>

Yes, yes, I know. Overly dramatic and florid in presentation. But the logic is sound. It stands, I think, as a lesson that short (in this case, three words) pieces of flavor text are at best a weak and unreliable basis for an argument about actual game function. It simply is not reasonable that beauty impacts the game stat, despite the three words. Sorry, Mark.
 

Umbran said:
Ah, yeah, Mark, but you're ignoring the next sentence:

"It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is percieved by others in a social seting."

..."not merely"...

...not "in lieu of"...

...presses remote control popping open briefcase to reveal that the hammer has somehow gotten much smaller...

;)
 

I'd run a half-orc with 16+ chr as both handsome/pretty AND with a strong force of personality. A minus 2 to the stat is not THAT big of a deal.

Some of those Klingon babes on Star Trek are BABES, man!

So put me in the camp that puts physical attractiveness as part (but certainly not all) of the CHR score. A 16 can have a healthy serving of both.

As for the original post, I would agree both with having a talk with the players, and with having NPCs instinctively respond positively to the half-orc, talking to the half-orc before any lower-chr character, etc. (Do this enough, and people should get the idea).
 

Umbran said:


The phrase, "Physical attractiveness" has a couple of possible meanings:

A) Attractiveness of the physical body. Physical beauty, especially in a sexual context.
B) Attractiveness of other sorts that makes the viewer wish to get physical with the viewed.

(The difference, btw, explains phenomena like Callista Flockheart. Major sex symbol for years, despite being emaciated and unhealthy, with a body like toothpicks stuck into a tootsie roll and a face like a horse. Unless you wanna claim it was her hair that had guys drooling, she has physical attractiveness without a lot of beauty.)


It simply is not reasonable that beauty impacts the game stat, despite the three words. Sorry, Mark.

I think your meaning B is a strained and unnatural interpretation of physical attractiveness.

Someone who was not physically attractive but whose other qualities made them attractive would be called attractive, but not physically attractive.

As for beauty not making sense for the game mechanics tied to it, that doesn't change the normal definition of physical attractiveness.

I'm with Mark on this one. Physical attractiveness is one of the aspects of Charisma as defined in D&D. It is possible to be ugly and have a high charisma, but you then must have a high presence and force of personality.
 

Over in the Fiery Dragon Message Boards I am (or was, rather) playing with a half-orc barbarian/sorceror called Leksy (Draconic for "Little Killer"... his mother named him that). He is restless at heart, feeling the call of his savage nature, yet at the same time he feels the need to restrain it, due to his human heritage.

His high Charisma was reflected on:
a) his personal grooming - close cropped hair, a nice robe.
b) his animal magnetism - he liked to go shirtless, and he knew his phisique garnered some looks of awe... or more... :D
c) his manner of speech - he wasn't illiterate, and he always addressed his elders with deference.
d) the fact that he KNEW people would be afraid of him because he was a 7-foot-tall half-orc. And he used that fear to his advantage.

As for how to emulate a race's preference for members of their own race, the DM just needs to adjust the NPC reaction. A NPC dwarf sergeant might be Unfriendly towards most people, but be Indifferent towards gnomes and Friendly towards other dwarves. No need to keep track of varying Cha bonuses, just prepare such reactions based on what races are in the party. So an Orc might be Hostile to most races, but be Indifferent to a half-orc, making the half-orc the best spokesperson while in savage humanoid lands.
 


Orc or Half Orc with a high charisma and a pretty high int ~


Easy (approximate) example: Gowron from ST:tNG
 

Voadam said:
I think your meaning B is a strained and unnatural interpretation of physical attractiveness.

Which is fine. That's why I said, "At best it's definition B", to show I was willing to compromise. The later, and stronger, statement - that the inclusion of "physical attractiveness" was errant nonsense, is not at all strained or unnatural.

Originally posted by Mark
...presses remote control popping open briefcase to reveal that the hammer has somehow gotten much smaller...

Now, Mark, hasn't anyone ever told you that it isn't the size of the hammer that counts? :)

You fail to address the central issue of the logic. If the attribute includes the effects of physical beauty or attractiveness, then you will get variation in the attribute dependant upon who views the character, what the character wears, etc. The core rules include no such changes. So the dependance upon beauty does not exist.
 

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