Zen Archer help

[glenchi]

I have been playing d&d 4th edition since it was released. recently my group and I decided that it was not for us, so we chose to go with the Pathfinder books to begin a new game.

I played 3rd edition from the day of release all the way until they began printing 4th edition, I own most of the books and any I dont know someone else in the group does. So I consider myself pretty well versed in what 3rd edition has to offer.

So we just began our pathfinder game and one of the players is playing a Zen Archer. I did not take the time to read about that particular variant class before saying was ok to use. This character has very good stats all around, i think his lowest stat is 15, and his Zen Archer is level 3 and just killing everything!

At his level he has rerolls for when he misses with his flurry of BOWS attacks, uses a greatbow (d10 dmg), NEVER provokes opportunity attacks due to the free precise shot master feat(i think thats what its called) which no one else can get until level 7 i believe.

so the breakdown right now is that with percise shot and using flurry of BOWS he has a +8 to hit with every attack, each turn he attacks twice and if he misses he just rerolls. he never provokes opportunity attacks, so he is like this turret of unbeleivable damage. and if that wasnt enough because of his high stats he has one of the highest ACs in the group (20, or around there).

Is there a rule that we are misreading or is the zen archer just really really sick? i would appreciate any input on the subject.

Thanks!

 

[DogBackward]

Perfect Strike doesn't allow you to reroll misses. Just like Stunning Fist, you have to declare before you attack that you're using it, and it lets you roll two dice. Second, the Zen Archer does not get Point Blank Master at all, since it doesn't get Weapon Specialization, and it isn't on the bonus feat list. I suggest you have a talk with your player, it looks like he's conveniently missed some details.

 

[glenchi]

the zen archer gets the percise shot mastery feat when he becomes level 3. it seems really powerful to me, never having to worry about opportunity attacks... as far as the rerolls go, thanks for the info.

i also just found out the zen archer is using a great bow that allows you to add your strength modifyer into damage (which is a +4 of course) i beleive it is called mighty composite.

so his max damage at this point is 2d10 (20) plus 4 per arrow (8) for a grand total of 28 damage at level 3... still seems pretty high to me. and i guess as soon as he can he is taking the elven archery feat that allows him to add his wisdom modifyer into damage as well (another +4) which will come out to a grand total of 36 damage (unless ofcourse he has mare attacks with flurry of BOWS by then).

seems really overpowered to me, anyone else have any thoughts?

 

[pawsplay]

Perfect Strike is once per round, and a maximum of 3/day at 3rd level. That's strong, but far from "killing everything." With good abilities, which he has, he has about three rounds of really savage flurry of blows and then he's done. I think if you see more fights to to 4-5 rounds, which should be about average, you will see he doesn't much outperform other attackers.

I'll be honest, my fight thought when I looked at Zen Archer was that it's slightly weak. 1d10+4/x3 is pretty solid for damage, but compare to an archetypal barbarian wielding a greatsword: Str 16, say, yields 2d6+4. While raging and using Power attack, you're looking at 2d6+10/19-20.

The Zen Archer is a very solid skirmisher, but not a damage machine.

 

[Areteas]

The greatbow is something I've seen in the hands of many a twinked-out archer player (including the guy who named his archer Archer, the generic-looking elf in generic-looking leather armor - lots of character development there). In truth bows of this size (in real world usage) were designed to be fired only from horseback, because a human isn't tall enough to hold the thing without the lower end of the bow being against the ground. I would tell him that unless he wants to spend every combat looking for something to stand on so he can dangle the bottom edge of his bow off the side, move to a Composite Longbow (D8 + variable strength bonus) - the one from the PFRPG core book, which is all you really have to allow - and religiously observe the composite rules:

All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.

So if he raises his strength or gets his strength buffed by spells/etc he'll either forfeit the damage bonus or have to buy/upgrade his bow.
Honestly, zen archers share the usual weaknesses of monks - they're great against hordes of easy to hit enemies, but can't keep up with full-BAB classes when it comes to foes with strong AC. They don't call it 'flurry of misses' for nothing. Eventually he will be able to spend ki to swap his HTH damage for bow damage for a round (which scales according to the usual monk abilities) or ki for an extra attack in a flurry, but neither of these things give them a bonus to hit.
I'd be careful about allowing a ton of 3.5 stuff (I'm assuming that's where he got the 'greatbow' stats) as a lot of it comes with tons of power creep and/or just isn't designed to work with the changes introduced in the PFRPG core rules.

 

[pawsplay]

Actually, some Japanese daikyu were built on a very large scale and depended on asymmetry or the assistance of the foot to draw and fire. It is also possible that during the heroic age, Athenians and other Greeks may have used very powerful longbows, fired at an angle.

 

[Areteas]

Actually, some Japanese daikyu were built on a very large scale and depended on asymmetry or the assistance of the foot to draw and fire. It is also possible that during the heroic age, Athenians and other Greeks may have used very powerful longbows, fired at an angle.

This seems to beg an EWP due to relearning all one's fancy zen archer monk techniques in a new firing position etc.... there's at least as much justification there as there is for the 1H bastard sword requiring an EWP, anyway.

 

[pawsplay]

It is exotic, isn't it? I thought it was.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It should still be an exotic weapon, so he paid a feat for +1 damage on average. Not scary.

To answer the OP's rhetorical question, a Fighter can have Point Blank Master at level 4 technically, since it requires Weapon Specialization. Since a Fighter only gets one feat at 4th level, though (to spend on Specialization), realistically he's getting it at 5th level. A Ranger IIRC can grab it at level 6+ if it's a bonus feat. If all the rules say is "no need for Specialization," they probably also qualify at level 4-5.

 

[glenchi]

thanks for all the good info everyone. I appreciate all the insight from different people, gives me lots to think about. any other insights are of course welcome, like for instance if anyone else has had this problem i would like to know what they did about it.