Zendikar: The greatest D&D setting never published

[Badwe]

by virtue of being able to focus on a setting for a year + 3 novels and then let it be, magic is able to give you the awesome parts of a setting without worrying about things like "why" it exists. in fact, by virtue of the concept of a multiverse, it's usually sufficient to assume that something caused that world to be the way it is. Essentially, magic is a multiverse setting that has been developed for over 15 years, which makes it very rich.

I would say places like lorwyn, kamigawa or certain parts of old dominaria would make good places for heroic tier adventures. Mirrodin, Ravnica, or Shadowmoor would make good candidates for paragon tier, while post-apocolyptic dominaria, rath, and phyrexia would make good epic tier play.

I've often flirted with the idea of how Magic races would fit into D&D but for most of them it involves either treading on toes or doing things not really covered by race. For example, how would you handle Vedalken having an extra set of hands? I would want Loxodon to be large sized but that confers too many mechanical benefits to be able to balance. Some are actually probably better served as grafts: Leonin as shifters, Viashino as dragonborn, etc.

Asmor, I enjoyed your set of articles regarding ravnica that you wrote many moons ago, did you ever do anything more with that or was it just brainstorming?

 

[Asmor]

Asmor, I enjoyed your set of articles regarding ravnica that you wrote many moons ago, did you ever do anything more with that or was it just brainstorming?

I did not, sorry.

 

[Andor]

Well, they don't.

Any more than Druids, Paladins, and Barbarians have a place in 'fantasy' settings.

Monk and ninja's have a place in fantasy Japan. Druids, Barbarians and Paladins have a place in fantasy Europe.

But all in conception too tightly bound to some real world culture to really be a part of a fantasy setting not tightly bound to a real world culture.

I get quickly disgusted at pastiches of any sort that aren't tightly tied to a particular historical reality. It is IMO a failure of imagination. But even worse is than a pastiche is the sort of pastiche of pastiches that has become concensus/core D&D. It would be one thing if the setting was inspired by different real world ingredients and blended together like cake batter until it was hard to tell what it was made from, but typically what you get is more like a salad bowl of mixed by wholly unchanged ingredients as if it makes perfect sense for them to all sit side beside looking exactly like things in the real world without any cultural exchange.

See, I don't completely understand this attitude. Since ninjas, vikings, knights, monks (european AND shao-lin) and various shamans all existed, at the same time, here on earth. And indeed any or all of them might reasonably have been found in 12th century Byzantium.

 

[Celebrim]

And indeed any or all of them might reasonably have been found in 12th century Byzantium.

Leaving aside that true 'Vikings' had disappeared by the 11th century and that ninja's wouldn't exist until the 14th, the majority of the members of your panalopy are all European and thus its hardly suprising to find them near each other.

In addition to arriving 300 years too early, I can think of absolutely no reason to find Japanese mercenaries - much less shinobi - as far afield as Byzantium or even in contact with Europeans at all prior to the 17th century. Nor do I find it believable that any Shaolin monks are wandering around Byzantium.

The 'ninja' is itself a pastiche of a pastiche, the real shinobi being very likely nothing like the actual 'ninja' of history. The 'druid' is likewise now an imitation of an imitation of an imitation, being at least three fantasies removed from the real druids of history. (What we think we know about the druids was invented pretty much whole cloth by 15th century fraternal orders, which in turn became the basis of equally feverish and wild 19th century imaginings, which in turn inspired the D&D druid which in turn has come to mean 'druid' in most young gamers minds.)

But all of that misses the more important part of the complaint, which is that if it is not to be a fantasy Earth, while there is every reason to believe that the cultures found there would be as varied as Earth, there is no reason to believe any of them would be directly congruent with any real Earth culture and every reason to believe that they wouldn't be. There is certainly no reason to believe that the dominate culture types would be those that loom largest in the mythology of the dominate cultures of the present day.

Why in the world would you want to introduce such derivitive crap? I mean, I can easily excuse it in your average organicly created homebrew, because who has the time to invent a whole world from fresh (or at least relatively fresh) cloth and who is so learned that at 14 the can escape the simple tropes? It's when the professionals come up with that sort of trite silliness that it bothers me. I simply can't fathom someone going, "What this really needs is some ninjas!" except to be humorous.

 

[Andor]

Ok, I see where you're coming from now. I didn't get that from your first post. And for what it's worth, I agree with you. But the simple fact is that most gamers can't even be bothered to understand the real world culture their character derives from, let alone to read an anthropology text on an invented culture and devote the thought neccessary to get into the head of a character from that invented culture.

But do invite me to one of your games if you can put togethera table of such players.

 

[Dark Psion]

by virtue of being able to focus on a setting for a year + 3 novels and then let it be, magic is able to give you the awesome parts of a setting without worrying about things like "why" it exists. in fact, by virtue of the concept of a multiverse, it's usually sufficient to assume that something caused that world to be the way it is. Essentially, magic is a multiverse setting that has been developed for over 15 years, which makes it very rich.

I would say places like lorwyn, kamigawa or certain parts of old dominaria would make good places for heroic tier adventures. Mirrodin, Ravnica, or Shadowmoor would make good candidates for paragon tier, while post-apocolyptic dominaria, rath, and phyrexia would make good epic tier play.

I've often flirted with the idea of how Magic races would fit into D&D but for most of them it involves either treading on toes or doing things not really covered by race. For example, how would you handle Vedalken having an extra set of hands? I would want Loxodon to be large sized but that confers too many mechanical benefits to be able to balance. Some are actually probably better served as grafts: Leonin as shifters, Viashino as dragonborn, etc.

And if you are unfamiliar with those planes, check out the new Planechase plane cards.

 

[SkidAce]

But all of that misses the more important part of the complaint, which is that if it is not to be a fantasy Earth, while there is every reason to believe that the cultures found there would be as varied as Earth, there is no reason to believe any of them would be directly congruent with any real Earth culture and every reason to believe that they wouldn't be. There is certainly no reason to believe that the dominate culture types would be those that loom largest in the mythology of the dominate cultures of the present day.

Why in the world would you want to introduce such derivitive crap? I mean, I can easily excuse it in your average organicly created homebrew, because who has the time to invent a whole world from fresh (or at least relatively fresh) cloth and who is so learned that at 14 the can escape the simple tropes? It's when the professionals come up with that sort of trite silliness that it bothers me. I simply can't fathom someone going, "What this really needs is some ninjas!" except to be humorous.

Well said. I have a better understanding of your point now.

 

[Betote]

I think there's a difference between History, Literary Fantasy and "D&D Fantasy". D&D Fantasy, which is what I want when I'm playing D&D, is a kitchen sink of cultures, mixed and deformed to suit not accuracy nor plausability, but awesomeness. When I see the Zendikar pics, I don't think about how would the freakin' huge floating d8's would affect the economy or the weather currents; I just see opportunity for adventure.

The problem with many "realistic" settings is that, in their attempt to have an explanation to every little culture difference, they often forget to leave a place for gaming. And that's one of the things 4e did right: every single place is meant to be played in, and nothing else matters.

 

[Rechan]

If you like Planescape you'd probably like this world. If you don't you'd probably hate it.

Hey. There are entirely different reasons to hate Planescape besides abundance of magic.

I like this, I don't Planescape. Because I don't like the planes, or the Blood War.

 

[Rechan]

I think there's a difference between History, Literary Fantasy and "D&D Fantasy". D&D Fantasy, which is what I want when I'm playing D&D, is a kitchen sink of cultures, mixed and deformed to suit not accuracy nor plausability, but awesomeness. When I see the Zendikar pics, I don't think about how would the freakin' huge floating d8's would affect the economy or the weather currents; I just see opportunity for adventure.

This.

It's like the gelatinous cube. If too much thought was put into "Well why is it cube like? Why is it like this? How does it even stay together since it's not in water", we likely woudln't have the gelatinous cube. It's just a clear square of acid to trick adventurers that fits in a dungeon.

Besides. For me, some of the fun comes from looking at the finished product and then thinking backwards. Place crazy things in the setting - THEN ponder what their impact would be.

All I care about these days is "Is it cool?" and if so, "How can I work this into an adventure/encounter?"