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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 3981720" data-attributes="member: 78">The problem is that A) I don't necessarily buy Toughness as being worse than other saves,  B) I don't see the new requirement as an improvement.Let's start with B:  The requirement that the Aura power be Touch Range and Sustained means that the base power of the aura makes a tremendous difference in the overall cost.  Strike (probably the most basic Aura idea, and generally one of the more obvious ones) goes up by 2 pp/rank - Aura is costing 4/rank total.  Let's look at some other powers though.  Emotion Control is Perception range and Sustained.  Including Aura is net -1 (-2 going to touch range, +1 for Aura), so an Emotion Aura is only 1 pp/rank and not noticeable by default.  And Noticeability is a huge deal on Auras, since an opponent who can reasonably guess that someone has an aura can often use other tactics easily to defeat the defensive benefit.  Punching or grabbing the burning guy or spikey lass might be a bad idea; instead smack them with something big, use a ranged attack, etc.  Is a Will attack really only less than 1/4th the power of a damaging effect?  Maybe?  Then let's look at something that does damage.  Take Telekinesis, make it touch range and buy the damaging extra to go with the Aura.  Now you can do damage or achieve some other STR based effect for a total of 3pp/rank.  The errata's nerf to Aura doesn't so much weaken Aura as simply change the good ways to use.  If Aura really does need to weakened (probably, along with the other - even easier and cheaper - way to inflict multiple damages: Improved Grab), then that's not the way to do it.And for A, Damage save DCs do start at 5 points higher than other save DCs.  However, let's look at the overall situation.  I think there's generally going to be more variability in exotic saves than in toughness, since they aren't so strongly linked to PL.  That's both good (you can hit a weak spot), and bad (some saves can be at or above PL without a corresponding downside).  With some foreknowledge (or good guessing) and/or an array with several attack forms, I think the attacker can get an edge though.And the sliding effects for attack powers tend to compare pretty evenly with damage.  Let's make some comparisons assuming that toughness save = exotic save (a pretty high level of exotic saves, IMO).  Because the difference in starting DCs, the degree of failure on a 'other' save is going to be 5 points less than that of damage.................Damage.............................  PowerFail 0-4:   Bruise    .............................. nothingFail 5-9:  Stun+Bruise...........................  Daze (lasting), fatigue, -2 att/check, slowed, entangleFail 10-14: Staggered+Stun................. Stun (L), Nausea (L), Bound/Helpless, ExhaustedFail 15:  KO ......................................KO (L), KO, Fanatic (L)At the 15 point level (or failure by 10 for exotic attacks), the results are basically equivalent: the character is taken out.  Although being Fanatic is a bit worse than that, I'd say, since it's not only -1 combatant for your team AND +1 for the enemy team.  Sometimes it will be easier to bounce back from damage (regen, recovery check, Healing), other times it will easier to shrug off the lasting effect on a followup save or have it countered.At the failure by 10 or so level (5 for special attacks), the damaged character is in trouble for a round, and significantly diminished in capability otherwise.  I think that results like helpless (snare, or paralyze) or losing the ability to attack for possibly several rounds (Stun, Nausea) are in the same ballpark.  Emotion Control can be pretty bad at this stage too (helpful from love, hostile to someone from hate, or running away).  Exhaustion isn't so bad for this level of effect, since it's only more penalties instead of something that screws up actions.  However, fatigue type effects can be hard to heal (only HP or hours to recover; no secondary save to shake it off) and can really screw characters using Extra Effort.At the -5 from DC level (basic failure for non toughness), damage is pretty much always worse.  The only condition that I'd generally consider as bad being Stunned for a round (and taking a bruise) might be Daze or Slow from Stun and Paralyze respectively.  Stun is worse for a single round, but the others can screw up actions over multiple rounds depending on followup saves.  Note that non-staged effects like Confuse, Dazzle, Dimensional Pocket, Mind Control, Drain, Suffocate and Transform come in that this level.  The problems inflicted by these powers vary radically on a case by case basis, ranging from annoying (Dazzle that doesn't take out all a character's accurate senses) to problematic (blindness, trapped in an object or other dimension) to "Fine.  Just give me the HP for getting screwed by this BS."At the 0 to 4 level, the character would have made the save against the exotic attack, so the damage is obviously worse.So I'm not really buying non-damaging as being significantly worse than damage effects, although the variability there can make comparisons difficult.  EDIT: oops, had this backward for my argument.</blockquote>

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