Zero to Hero!

[Spatula]

3 death saves.

To me, death saves are not a safety net. A safety net might be, you're unconscious and immune to damage until healed. Not, you're unconscious and you have three chances to roll 10+, or you're dead. The death save is an additional avenue for character death, not a bulwark against it, and one more likely to happen IME than reaching -bloodied.

 

[Klaus]

To me, death saves are not a safety net. A safety net might be, you're unconscious and immune to damage until healed. Not, you're unconscious and you have three chances to roll 10+, or you're dead. The death save is an additional avenue for character death, not a bulwark against it, and one more likely to happen IME than reaching -bloodied.

Yeah, if you have a rough 50% chance of rolling 10+ (actually 45%, but I don't wanna do that kind of math right now), there's a 12.5% chance that you'll die in 3 rounds, regardless of hit points.

 

[corwyn77]

Yeah, if you have a rough 50% chance of rolling 10+ (actually 45%, but I don't wanna do that kind of math right now), there's a 12.5% chance that you'll die in 3 rounds, regardless of hit points.

Especially since they don't reset when you become conscious. Usually if you're healed from negative HP you are still in the danger zone and often easier to take down than others in the party. If you fail two death saves, are healed to positive HP, and go under again, one failed death save and you're done. I've seen that plenty of times.

 

[corwyn77]

D&D is unique in one key thing.. the DM.

Other games have GMs but they are more there to referee the group rather than a DM who's role is to narrate, direct, produce the story.

D&D is a lot like a movie. Most people only see the PCs, what they do and their motivations much like Actors in a movie. Without the Producer/Director of the movie, they would just be random people talking at a bus stop...

Excuse me? I sense countless other games are being insulted.

How exactly is DnD unique in this respect, compared to other RPGs? How is a Game Master from some other RPG some impartial referee arbitrating a game and a DM some cooperative narrator, creating a story with his co-writing actors?

Sorry, but I call BS.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

While I do not consider general survivability higher than in older editions, there are several things to consider:

- You don´t have to play safe as DM: you may attack the wizard if the fighter does not use his marks effectively (In older editions the gentlemen agreement was attacking the fighter if the wizard stayed at the back rank).

- You recover better from a hard fight. (Without the use of magic items, but on the other hand, magic items can´t increase recovery a lot in 4e)

- One hit kills are impossible (Even crits don´t kill). But not beeing hit is also less likely.

4e combats are a little bit easier to predict. With above assumptions, you know that fighting 1vs1 will not kill you in a single round, but on the other hand, you can be sure, that 4 orcs kann wear down a fighter fast. In older editions, each orc maybe had a 1 of 20 chance to hit, but a single hit could take the fighter out... so it was more of a gamble.

But in a way I agree with the opener:
1st level characters already feel very heroic. I also liked it, when you have 2 or 3 levels before that as an option.
Those phase, which can be skipped would be a perfect tutorial especially for new players: a first level 4e character is already very complex.

Just having race and class features and no powers (or few at will powers) would be sufficient to learn the game and still have fun.

 

[Kannon]

While I do not consider general survivability higher than in older editions, there are several things to consider:

- You don´t have to play safe as DM: you may attack the wizard if the fighter does not use his marks effectively (In older editions the gentlemen agreement was attacking the fighter if the wizard stayed at the back rank).

- You recover better from a hard fight. (Without the use of magic items, but on the other hand, magic items can´t increase recovery a lot in 4e)

- One hit kills are impossible (Even crits don´t kill). But not beeing hit is also less likely.

4e combats are a little bit easier to predict. With above assumptions, you know that fighting 1vs1 will not kill you in a single round, but on the other hand, you can be sure, that 4 orcs kann wear down a fighter fast. In older editions, each orc maybe had a 1 of 20 chance to hit, but a single hit could take the fighter out... so it was more of a gamble.

But in a way I agree with the opener:
1st level characters already feel very heroic. I also liked it, when you have 2 or 3 levels before that as an option.
Those phase, which can be skipped would be a perfect tutorial especially for new players: a first level 4e character is already very complex.

Just having race and class features and no powers (or few at will powers) would be sufficient to learn the game and still have fun.

I did this awhile ago to show a group of new players 4e. Started with at-wills (And leader powers, though those were at-will for that campaign too. Very new players with no real tactical ability. And I still killed a few characters when they ran out of surges an an inopportune moment.), after a couple of fights, went up to the encounter powers, then the racials, so on. It worked out, but to be honest, with that group, they would have felt a bit like zeros for the first few levels no matter what. Like I said, very new players.

 

[Spibb]

I think whether the character is a hero or zero to begin with is a plot subjective thing, not game mechanic. Every campaign I've DM'd I started my players out as poor nobodies. Granted that tends to lead to the players turning to mercenaries to live

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What I think it boils down to isn't precisely that it's harder to die in 4e, but rather that it's harder to die accidentally.

I think that's the point.

I wouldn't be surprised if a kobold could as easily kill a PC in 4e as in 3rd (or vice versa, for that matter), but it takes more rounds either way, so there's more options to avoid death.

I've seen PCs very nearly die four times IMC, and only one was accidental. They only managed to survive because if one PCs gets really unlucky (opponents roll well against them, they can't save vs ongoing damage, etc) they get rescued. (It's harder to kill 4 PCs with 4 monsters than 1 PC with 1 monster, IME.) In at least two cases, one PC survived till the end (all the rest were KO'd).

IMO accidental death is not cool, or dying solely due to bad luck is not cool. Dying because you bit off more than you could chew is quite another story. Different strokes and all that.

Let me take a brief moment to list the safety nets:

Second Wind.
Negative bloodied HP value.
3 death saves.
Healing Surges and many class and racial abilities that grant them.
Healing starts at 0 no matter how far down in the negatives you are.
Many classes that grant Temporary Hit Points.
Any class can use the Raise Dead ritual.

That's the only way my PCs managed to survive a combat with a delevelled tembo (normally a 6th-level solo skirmisher, I dropped it to 4th-level to match theirs). It didn't help the PCs that their cleric dropped first! Worse, it has a damage dealing aura, and there's nothing saying it doesn't affect downed PCs. This kind of safety net means I'm more likely to challenge the PCs with a hard encounter, instead of backing off and being "nice".

 

[shamsael]

One thing about 4th edition that's different is the fact that you start out as a hero. While this is good an all for some people, it's not something for me. Also, the chance to die at low levels is a bit lower when compared to other editions and that's fine if you like that sort of thing but I don't. For some reason I like it when the odds are stacked against me and I like to go from a nobody to the hero of the land.

I think what happens is it gives me more of an appreciation and a sense of fulfillment when I know I have beaten the odds and come out on top. I have played Wizards since 1st edition and whenever I ran out of spells I always had to think outside the box to help out the other party members and make use of what I had left and I really enjoyed that.

Do you like your characters to go from a dud to a stud or do you like starting out as the hero?

It works for some campaigns, but it's not my preferred way to play.