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Zombie Outbreak - where to hide?

Nadaka said:
Shaun of the Dead was a good zombie movie, and it had competent military response. However, they only showed up in the last what? 10 minutes of the movie? So the trick to mixing a realistic military response with a good zombie horror is to focus on the initial outbreak where the civilians just have to find a way to hold out long enough for rescue (and they might not that rescue is coming if radio and telephone goes down).

Yeah, Shaun of the Dead sprang to my mind too. Also the original Night of the Living Dead (can't remember if I've seen the remakes) - armed law enforcement and deputized civilians show up in the last few minutes of the movie.

And those of you who haven't watched either of these two movies. Go to Blockbuster or NetFlix, watch them, and then come back here. :)
 

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Mark Plemmons said:
Yeah, Shaun of the Dead sprang to my mind too. Also the original Night of the Living Dead (can't remember if I've seen the remakes) - armed law enforcement and deputized civilians show up in the last few minutes of the movie.

And those of you who haven't watched either of these two movies. Go to Blockbuster or NetFlix, watch them, and then come back here. :)

Shaun is an excellent film, but take a look at the other films in the Dead series - after awhile, the effective response breaks down as people relax. A cut scene from the original Night has the sheriff and his pals cracking a frosty one...only to end up getting devoured by Barbara and her brother, along with a nicely-sized horde of flesh-eaters that trickled in or were missed in the initial sweep.

However, if you want effective response, perhaps you should move to Lansing, Michigan:

http://hub.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071024/NOISE05/710240310
 

Warren Okuma said:
Most of my marine friends and their families live in Kailua around the military base there.

Brah, send mauna pua, eh! :D

/only lived there for a year
//stuck in eastern Kentucky now
///misses the food on Oahu
////But not the price!
/////been reading to much [FARK
//////slashies!
 

Jim Hague said:
Shaun is an excellent film, but take a look at the other films in the Dead series - after awhile, the effective response breaks down as people relax.

Sure - same as in 28 Weeks Later where the army is ineffectual (although they did have the foresight to start repopulating on an island.... :)) There are plenty of examples to cite that will prove differing opinions, but I've got to agree with the previous poster who said that you can have an effective military in a zombie film/book/rpg etc and still have a good, typical example of the genre.

Off-topic: 28 Days Later - good. 28 Weeks Later - bleah (though the last few seconds were nice).
 

Mark Plemmons said:
Sure - same as in 28 Weeks Later where the army is ineffectual (although they did have the foresight to start repopulating on an island.... :)) There are plenty of examples to cite that will prove differing opinions, but I've got to agree with the previous poster who said that you can have an effective military in a zombie film/book/rpg etc and still have a good, typical example of the genre.

Off-topic: 28 Days Later - good. 28 Weeks Later - bleah (though the last few seconds were nice).

I disagree, honestly. As noted earlier, one of the central tropes of the genre is the breakdown of civilized authority and the revelation of what lies beneath the thin, everyday veneer. You may have small (but effective) unites of military personnel, but if you're going to keep verisimilitude, the only people remaining in authority initially are going to be the cowardly and ruthless.

I'd also note, for those who keep pooh-poohing WWZ's take on the military response - the military does, eventually, get its act together and strike back...but only after large portions of the world have been lost. Modern tactics are brought to bear initially, but considering those tactics are all designed around fighting a human enemy, they prove woefully ineffective in most cases. To take the world back, the militaries that survived the Zombie War had to adopt new tactics entirely.
 

Jim Hague said:
I disagree, honestly. As noted earlier, one of the central tropes of the genre is the breakdown of civilized authority and the revelation of what lies beneath the thin, everyday veneer. You may have small (but effective) unites of military personnel, but if you're going to keep verisimilitude, the only people remaining in authority initially are going to be the cowardly and ruthless.

I agree that the military shouldn't be on the ball from the beginning (probably the opposite will occur), but eventually they will get their act together. For example....

Jim Hague said:
I'd also note, for those who keep pooh-poohing WWZ's take on the military response - the military does, eventually, get its act together and strike back...but only after large portions of the world have been lost. Modern tactics are brought to bear initially, but considering those tactics are all designed around fighting a human enemy, they prove woefully ineffective in most cases. To take the world back, the militaries that survived the Zombie War had to adopt new tactics entirely.

:)

I enjoy all types of (well-written) zombie fiction - no matter whether the zombies or the humans win. The fiction should focus on the man in the street, though, to be interesting to me.

(Okay, moving day this weekend as I get a new apartment - see you back here on Tuesday. :))
 
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Jim Hague said:
I disagree, honestly. As noted earlier, one of the central tropes of the genre is the breakdown of civilized authority and the revelation of what lies beneath the thin, everyday veneer. You may have small (but effective) unites of military personnel, but if you're going to keep verisimilitude...

Verisimilitude is not the quality of resembling artifice or fictional tropes. It is the quality of resembling truth. Out in the real world the civilized authority isn't perfect, but IMO it also doesn't generally conform to the central tropes of anti-authoritarian satire. I simply don't accept that 'Dawn of the Dead' is a accurate judge of peoples behavior.

I'd also note, for those who keep pooh-poohing WWZ's take on the military response - the military does, eventually, get its act together and strike back...but only after large portions of the world have been lost.

Once again, it occurs like this because it is a convention of the story. The zombies push humanity into small pockets of survivors (against all odds IMO) with the power of plot, and then again with the power of plot and against all odds the beleagured survivors take back thier world. It happens like that because that is how stories work. It's the freakin' plot of Star Wars. It's the classic epic narrative. It may make a good story, but that's it.

Modern tactics are brought to bear initially, but considering those tactics are all designed around fighting a human enemy, they prove woefully ineffective in most cases.

A 155mm shell dropping on an enemy position is not going to be woefully ineffective even if that enemy is mass of zombies. The typical 'shambler' zombie is of no real threat to a modern military unit, which is mechanized, armored, and specifically trained to deal both with 'human wave' attacks. While some things that they are used to using won't work that well (claymores, frag grenades) because they typically rely on soft tissue damage, the modern military is trained to deal with an enemy that is presenting small targets by taking cover and possibly wearing armor while that enemy is shooting back. Personally, I'd rather face the shambling zombie horde than a equal number of enemies with grenades and assault rifles.

To take the world back, the militaries that survived the Zombie War had to adopt new tactics entirely.

About the only thing that I think the modern military would be poorly equipped to handle is melee combat. Current tactics are so effective against human wave attacks that melee combat is virtually obselete in modern warfare. So no one carries serious melee weapons anymore. With some of the more effective defences against a human wave attack being less effective, and shoot and scoot not always being an option (though its alot easier than if you are being shot at), you could initially have problems with overruns. But that is pretty easily dealt with compared to fighting clever humans with rifles, RPGs, machine guns, etc. and devising tactics for that.

If we want to talk about real versimilitude, lets talk about the fact that everyone 'knows' how to kill a zombie, not to get bit, etc. even though no one has any real experience with actual zombies. Our metagaming might get us in trouble for a while, but people learn fast.
 

Jim Hague said:
I disagree, honestly. As noted earlier, one of the central tropes of the genre is the breakdown of civilized authority and the revelation of what lies beneath the thin, everyday veneer. You may have small (but effective) unites of military personnel, but if you're going to keep verisimilitude, the only people remaining in authority initially are going to be the cowardly and ruthless.

I'd also note, for those who keep pooh-poohing WWZ's take on the military response - the military does, eventually, get its act together and strike back...but only after large portions of the world have been lost. Modern tactics are brought to bear initially, but considering those tactics are all designed around fighting a human enemy, they prove woefully ineffective in most cases. To take the world back, the militaries that survived the Zombie War had to adopt new tactics entirely.

I have not read WWZ. What is it about the zombies that invalidates modern warfare tactics? Do the zombies regenerate all non magical wounds? do they require silver bullets to kill? what? Do they move 10 times faster than a normal human? Do they shoot lasers from their eyes? Does every living thing within 1 mile of a zombie just magically die? Do they possess super human senses and intelligence?

Typical vectors:
Old fashioned: Some voodoo priest or warlock raises a graveyard full of dead. To defeat the dead, you must kill the warlock or otherwise lift the curse. These dead are generally completely indestructible.
Romero: Hell on earth, all recently dead humans rise as zombies.
Modern: Zombies spread as a plague, one must be bitten to be infected. There is no practical cure and it takes a few hours (maybe a day) for the infection to turn you.

Typical zombie:
Moves slowly.
Obviously dead.
Doesn't climb very well.
Doesn't swim very well.
Is mindless.
Moves in a strait line towards food (people).
Doesn't care if you shoot at it.
Does not die from wounds to the body.
Dies to a head shot.
Looses combat effectiveness with the loss of arms and mobility with the loss of legs.

When you combine typical vectors, with typical zombies you can not pose a credible threat against a modern military force. Hell, it wouldn't be that rough even against a strong local PD with access to a SWAT team.
 


awayfarer said:
I'm heading to a miniature golf course with batting cages and the like. My outbreak is going to be a comedy. Anyone else think that seeing a zombie beheaded by the windmill would just be awesome?


Absolutely! As a matter of fact, if you make it a zany comedy, you've probably increased the likelihood that you and your friends will survive unscathed! Well done!
 

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