General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
IMHO, and with apologies for abusing some other dude's terminology, the emergence of sexism in RPGs is a function of two things: Simulationism and [/b]Narration[/b]. That it has been largely removed from many of the most popular RPGs is a function of the triumph of Gamism.
Basically, simulationism demands that the difference between girls and boys be quantified.
Narration demands that certain roles be filled -- and the maiden in distress role may be just as important as the knight in armor role, but one's just a bit more fun to enact.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
I think I'd rather see a female severely injured in combat than good at math. The one I could live with, no problem, the other is just plain kinda scary.
I think I'd rather see a female severely injured in combat than good at math. The one I could live with, no problem, the other is just plain kinda scary.
Does that make me a bad person?
Assuming you aren't being facetious...
Yes. I'd say it does.
So far, this thread has been remarkably polite and even-keeled. Why would you try to ruin that with a deliberately smarmy, insulting comment like that?
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
I think I'd rather see a female severely injured in combat than good at math. The one I could live with, no problem, the other is just plain kinda scary.
1. Non-sexist advertising.
Frankly, the first thing that comes to mind is that there should be some advertising. Anywhere.
I think the only place I've seen D&D stuff advertised is in RPG magazines and on RPG websites...and in Amazon recommendations triggered by the fact I bought D&D books from them.
Is there any D&D advertising at all? I watch Cartoon Network and Sci-Fi when I'm in a hotel room: I'd think those would be natural ad venues. Not a kobold or gnome do I find. (OK, you never see the gnomes coming...)
2. Non-sexist presentation of people.
D&D 4th edition (and third and 3.5) use "he" and "she" to refer to characters alternately and have both male and female example characters. Is this no longer stylistically correct?
Me, I prefer "characters" and "they": my 11th grade English teacher would be outraged at my number confusion, but "he/she" is discordant and the general "he" has been shouted down.
Yes, I recognize D&D 1 and 2 used the general he: that was in accordance with general English usage at the time.
3. Non-sexist treatment of people.
We've already established the rules treat characters of different (or no) genders relatively equally. The drow are an exception, but they're a collection of murderous demon-worshippers: sexism is probably one of their better qualities.
Have I missed a "Beer and Wenches" D&D ad?
Cos otherwise, I'm not seeing any reason for you to be unhappy.
Shilsen:
Is there any D&D advertising at all? I watch Cartoon Network and Sci-Fi when I'm in a hotel room: I'd think those would be natural ad venues. Not a kobold or gnome do I find. (OK, you never see the gnomes coming...)
Comic books maybe? I could swear I saw some when 4E first came out.
I can't recall seeing any since, but that might not mean much. Of course, I can still recall the old advertisements for the 2E PHB and that Buck Rogers game. Those still stick in my head. And the one featuring the original cover of the Crystal Shard.
I think I'd rather see a female severely injured in combat than good at math. The one I could live with, no problem, the other is just plain kinda scary.
Does that make me a bad person?
Of course it does. Deadpan irreverent humour is intolerable, or at least shouldn't be put up with in a decent world.
Something I've been thinking though, while there have been elements of discrimination (sexism) in D&D against women, it has been my experience that there far greater amounts of discrimination (especially in intensity) towards D&D by women.
I'm not saying it's two-way, nor that there is cause and effect (though maybe there is). But I've met for more women who have a visceral negative reaction against TRPGs than I have met male hobbyists who have even mildly sexist reactions.
It made me think that in this current rule set, which angle would be the easiest to work upon to bring more women to the hobby.
__________________
Do you have the patience to teach 4e or WHFRP2 to a longtime gamer?
Are you in a group playing D20 or 3e and need an extra?
Does your group play a campaign using BECMI/Rules Compendium and could use another player?
Sorry mate, I was out of line there. It's a topic I feel strongly about, and in all honesty, I shoulddo know better than to go shooting my mouth off about it. Again. Well, here anyway.
Now I actually will shut up (about this ), and leave you to your unenviable task.
edit --- . . . except to say that I just now read Jack's followup thread (er, post), and well, I have certainly misread him in this case. Well, kinda half-misread, so to speak. Gah, this is not a good day for such things, it seems. :/
Last edited by Aus_Snow; 18th May 2009 at 07:31 AM..
For men, appearance is a much more important factor in sexual attraction than it is for women. Sure women like to look at George Clooney but the actor's appeal with the opposite sex is, imo, based on a wider variety of traits than looks alone.
So visual art is inherently sexist. By choosing to create a picture one has chosen a medium which appeals more to male sexual desire than to female.
While there may be real studies suggesting that physical beauty (particularly related to fertility cues) may be a larger proportion of male attraction than female attraction, it doesn't follow that visual art is inherently sexist. Sexism will come from choosing to appeal to the viewer's sexual desires. Using sex to sell the product. And that does not define visual art as a whole.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
BTW, I just did a quick scan of the art in the core books for 1e and 4e.
In 1E, I noticed 2 pictures of females in the PHB (one a female elf with the race pictures, the other a caster type at the end), maybe 8 or so in the DMG (I'm not sure whether or not to count the images at the bottom of the RDG page as one or many), and the MM had like 2 females that weren't on pages of monsters that were explicitly female.
In comparison, the 4E books had males and females for each of the races in the PHB, and females throughout the rest of the book, same for the DMG. For the MM, many of the monster pictures had male and female examples, including the player-character races, but some others like Goblins and Bugbears as well.
Note, I'm not bothering to compare the quality/style/amount of the art, just doing a quick look through the books for some perspective. And I really don't want to go through all the editions, but if somebody else does, hey, more power to you!
I've opened similar threads on previous incarnations of ENworld, but I've mellowed since.
Fantasy worlds are usually sexist, but rarely downright misogynistic. I've also found that women (IME) aren't very outraged by it, and clearly see it as a target market measure and not a prejudice problem. If you look at the way women are regarded in most other male-dominated pursuits, the charge of gamer sexism looks weak indeed.
I will, however, never regard chainmail bikinis as legitimate, simply because they're absurd as fighting garb.
On a topic I find less bothersome (i.e., sexism - or rather, relative sexism - in gaming), I'd say that even among RPGs, which are by and large hardly the worst offenders out there, 3e and - to the best of my knowledge - 4e are remarkably un-sexist. Seriously.
Switching gender pronouns all over the place. Frequent and strong representation of women in adventuring and yes, even fighting roles. In both text and imagery, that is.
Sexism in [21C] D&D? Really? And EN WORLD, of all places? I am not kidding in any way, shape or form here, just for the record. I'm just struggling not to collapse in a fit of giggles at the very idea.
As for the 'evidence' given in the OP, in the vast majority it was people (including at least one moderator) takin' the proverbial pee, or just being harmlessly jocular. Otherwise, (maybe) one or two poor ignorant sods who truly probably don't know better. . . yet. Who knows, in a few years, growing up might sneak up on them. *shrug* Anyway, the targets here seem. . . odd choices indeed.
~ This post was WAY over the line, hence I'm removing it. I understand that these are some issues you feel strongly about, but this isn't the right place to talk about them. Plane Sailing ~
Last edited by Plane Sailing; 18th May 2009 at 11:18 AM..
I would wager that few people reading this, whatever their race or gender, have actually been oppressed (beyond the standard economic exploitation and political despotism that characterizes the US).
"Standard economic exploitation and political despotism," in YOUR words, do not equal oppression? That's some stringent standards you've got there, fella.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeutonicBerserker
Why do ideologically motivated individuals, invariably from the left (culturally speaking), feel compelled to bemoan the fact that other people don't see things the way they do?
You're new to posting to the forum, so you may not be aware that you're moving REALLY close to the line with this part of your post, especially combined with use of RW political hot buttons like Affirmative Action. To give you some sense of this, I had to really, really make the effort to be polite to you about a post that comes off as baiting at times.
I really wanted to bring up the usual arguments about US history that working class liberals like myself usually bring up, but... I'm going to try to assume that you didn't mean this post to come off the way it read.
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
"Art is the demonstration that the ordinary is extraordinary." - Amedee Ozenfant, Foundations of Modern Art
"I already have a place where I can get little recognition for my accomplishments, advance at a very slow pace, and have to work hard to eke out minimum rewards for my efforts. It's called work." - toberane.
I disagree. I don't think roleplaying games in their current form (and I refer to content not presentation) can ever appeal to women anything like as strongly as they appeal to men. They are way too combat heavy, way too system heavy and way too number heavy.
I'm not saying girls can't do math, or that female geeks don't exist or that women can't be interested in some number-oriented activity like Bingo or Bridge. But in ttrpgs numbers fly around like clouds of bats, many of them serving no purpose whatsoever. You have to f---ing love them to play in a way few women do.
Rpgs that do appeal to women more are mmorpgs and Murder Mystery.
Excuse me?
OK, I', mathematically challenged (dyscalculia) and numbers do scare me on my bad days. However, the numbers in rpgs are all so basic even i get it - although I might have to look up tables to know what does what damage.
And I have yet to see someone who "loves" the numbers in rpgs. They are there for a reason, but if there was a way to get rid of them, I bet many males would love that, too.
I've met a bunch of males who were turned off by all the numbers, I don't think it has anything to do with what women prefer.
__________________ Barbarian: "I'm going to run the door down with my shoulder."
DM: "Ouch, that hurt you."
Thief: "We'll, I'm opening the lock then..."
DM "Sorry, no such luck."
Wizard: "Darn, I'm all out of spells."
Fighter: "Fighter & Barbarian pick up an old tree to use as a ram aaaaand... here we go!"
DM "The door is as steady as it looks, unfortunately. Loud noise and a tree on top of you is all you get"
Paladin: "Out of frustration, I grab the handle and rattle at the door."
DM: The unlocked door opens with a squeak and you stumble into the room - now roll for your balance."
Players: "You know you suck?"
DM: *snicker*
And I have yet to see someone who "loves" the numbers in rpgs. They are there for a reason, but if there was a way to get rid of them, I bet many males would love that, too.
*raises hand*
I don't advocate diceless RP, since I enjoy the random aspects. But if there were an easy way to never utter a number aloud, and instead somehow convey the numbers instantly and only ever describe the effects via the narrative, I'd be all over it.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
), and leave you to your unenviable task.
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