ToB:Bo9S Tank / City Watch Character Build

Mistwell · Sep 15, 2007

cheshire_grin said:
1. Get your attack bonus up there (magic weapons, Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus ASAP, etc) and Power Attack.

Can't really power attack and Stone Power at the same time. I mean technically I can, but realistically it wouldn't work so well. Magic weapon is an option. As a warblade I was thinking of taking the stance that increases my damage by 1d6 at the expense of some AC, but that is no longer an option as a crusader.

Attack bonus will be high already, but at 1d8 + str damage, it won't be for much damage.

2. +STR. Bull's Strength, Enlarge, other buffs.

I cannot depend on buffs from the spellcasters in the party. It would have to be through wands, and they just don't have the extra action to spare (nor warning before most battles).

3. Don't worry about it. As long as you're pinning enemies in place and soaking up damage, the wizards, sorcerors, and rogues in the party can take care of damage output. Not as much fun as dealing it yourself, but just as effective.

Well, that's a good point. However, what it will likely mean is foes will escape more often (and they already do often as well). Nor can I pursue, with heavy armor. I was hoping to have more of a chance of dropping foes rather than whittling them down to the point where they have the motive and option to flee. With a plot heavy city adventure, foes getting away usually means trails go cold while we wait for the enemy to regather their strength and surprise us again.

Arkhandus · Sep 15, 2007

Mistwell said:
1) I am a little confused about when Stone Power can be used. Obviously it can be used when I use a Stone strike. And it can be used when I make a normal attack or full attack. However, can it be used when I make an attack combined with a strike from Devoted Spirit or White Raven, assuming the strike in question requires a melee attack for example?

2) I am concerned about damage output. The sword and board build can take damage, and is hard to hit. However, with just a longsword and decent strength I am not going to hit for much damage. How can I make up for that deficiency a bit?

1) No. Stone Power specifies an attack action or full-attack action, or a Stone Dragon strike maneuver. The only other strikes you can use it with are those which provide an attack action or full-attack action (like Flashing Sun or Time Stands Still, neither of which are available to Crusaders normally).

2) Some of your maneuvers will boost damage output. After all, you'll only be using Crusader's Strike/Revitalizing Strike/etc. once every 3 rounds or so. The rest of the time you'll be attacking with damage-boosting strikes like Mountain Hammer, Bonecrusher, Bonesplitting Strike, Battle Leader's Charge, or Tactical Strike.

For the first two or three levels you'll have to rely on Charging Minotaur for damage, but won't be doing a lot of damage. Your first few levels will involve more defensive tactics, like Stone Bones, Crusader's Strike, and Douse the Flames, interspersed with Charging Minotaur, Vanguard Strike, or Leading the Attack, simply because Crusaders have such a poor maneuver selection at low levels. After 3rd or 4th you should have Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge, or Tactical Strike. Then you'll build up more offensive maneuvers as you progress further.

You could, of course, waste a feat on Martial Study (Burning Blade or Shadow Blade Technique) if you really wanted another offensive maneuver to use. Or, if human you could start with Martial Study (Steely Strike or Steel Wind) and Martial Stance (Punishing Stance), if you wanted more serious initial offensive power. Though it would hurt your development a bit, particularly in survivability for the first few levels (Steely Strike gives enemies other than your target a +4 to hit you for 1 round, and Punishing Stance incurs -2 AC while you're using it, and of course both carry the opportunity cost of not using Stone Bones or Martial Spirit at the same time).

Kurotowa · Sep 15, 2007

Mistwell said:
1) I am a little confused about when Stone Power can be used. Obviously it can be used when I use a Stone strike. And it can be used when I make a normal attack or full attack. However, can it be used when I make an attack combined with a strike from Devoted Spirit or White Raven, assuming the strike in question requires a melee attack for example?

No. That's the limitation of Stone Power, that it only works with normal attacks and Stone Dragon strikes.

Mistwell said:
2) I am concerned about damage output. The sword and board build can take damage, and is hard to hit. However, with just a longsword and decent strength I am not going to hit for much damage. How can I make up for that deficiency a bit?

Going with this build, you're a defender, not a striker. Damage output isn't your main contribution. Let the Warblade or Barbarian worry about killing things, your contribution is Not Dying and helping your friends Not Die. Every time an ally who's still standing thanks to your Devoted Spirit maneuvers hits, that's your damage too. Every bonus attack they get from White Raven, you have a piece of that.

That said, there are a lot of damage boosting strikes you can pick up. And happily, lots of them are Stone Dragon ones, which ties in well with #1 above. Mountain Hammer, Bonecrusher, Elder Mountain Hammer will all help you hit harder. There's also some from Devoted Spirit that are pretty hard hitting. If you want, you can get enough to keep yourself well stocked with damage boosters.

Mistwell · Sep 15, 2007

Arkhandus said:
1) No. Stone Power specifies an attack action or full-attack action, or a Stone Dragon strike maneuver. The only other strikes you can use it with are those which provide an attack action or full-attack action (like Flashing Sun or Time Stands Still, neither of which are available to Crusaders normally).

So are you saying that, if I initiate a non-stone strike, it's NOT an attack action even if it requires a melee attack to use the strike? See, I am still confused. Why is that not an attack action? Is "strike" now another action category (not an attack action, not a full-round action, but a "strike" action)?

If it's really a feat only useful when using a stone-strike, then it's not a very useful feat. But if it can be used any time I make a melee attack, regardless of whether or not a strike is attached to that melee attack, then it's a very useful feat.

2) Some of your maneuvers will boost damage output. After all, you'll only be using Crusader's Strike/Revitalizing Strike/etc. once every 3 rounds or so. The rest of the time you'll be attacking with damage-boosting strikes like Mountain Hammer, Bonecrusher, Bonesplitting Strike, Battle Leader's Charge, or Tactical Strike.

For the first two or three levels you'll have to rely on Charging Minotaur for damage, but won't be doing a lot of damage. Your first few levels will involve more defensive tactics, like Stone Bones, Crusader's Strike, and Douse the Flames, interspersed with Charging Minotaur, Vanguard Strike, or Leading the Attack, simply because Crusaders have such a poor maneuver selection at low levels. After 3rd or 4th you should have Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge, or Tactical Strike. Then you'll build up more offensive maneuvers as you progress further.

Ah, yeah, I need to take a closer look at that list. Thank you for that, it's quite helpful.

One question though - why douse the flames? Seems pretty situational (which is not a great thing for a Crusader who has to burn through those maneuvers before they renew).

You could, of course, waste a feat on Martial Study (Burning Blade or Shadow Blade Technique) if you really wanted another offensive maneuver to use. Or, if human you could start with Martial Study (Steely Strike or Steel Wind) and Martial Stance (Punishing Stance), if you wanted more serious initial offensive power. Though it would hurt your development a bit, particularly in survivability for the first few levels (Steely Strike gives enemies other than your target a +4 to hit you for 1 round, and Punishing Stance incurs -2 AC while you're using it, and of course both carry the opportunity cost of not using Stone Bones or Martial Spirit at the same time).

No, not worth it. If I am going to take martial study, it will be in later levels when I need a higher level maneuver with low or no prerequisites (there are a few).

Zurai · Sep 15, 2007

Another thing in the "how do I deal damage" category is that damage dealt to you increases the damage you deal. Every 5 points of damage in your delayed damage pool boosts your attack rolls and damage rolls by 1.

Arkhandus · Sep 15, 2007

Because the 'attack action' and 'full-attack action' are specific actions you can take, like 'total defense' is a particular action. Maneuvers specifically use a standard action, full-round action, move action, swift action, or immediate action to initiate. Just as casting a spell typically uses a standard action.

Stone Power is very specifically limited to use with Stone Dragon strike maneuvers, and with any 'attack action' or 'full-attack action'.

Arkhandus · Sep 15, 2007

Douse the Flames is a strike that will help when
1) you want to back away safely this turn for whatever reason, or move around behind the opponent perhaps so that an ally can more easily flank with you
2) your allies need to move past that opponent safely this turn
3) someone needs to cast a spell against the opponent in melee without worrying about AoOs
4) you or someone else needs to pick up a weapon or stand up from prone or whatnot (you can use Douse the Flames with a shield bash, for instance, then safely pick up your sword or whatever if the opponent disarmed you last round)

Not hugely useful, but the main point was that it would allow you to qualify for a higher-level White Raven maneuver later when you needed it (I don't think any of the 2nd-level + WR maneuvers lack prerequisites, off the top of my head, based on the last time I looked through them).

blargney the second · Sep 15, 2007

Mistwell, I think you're totally right to want to keep up your damage output. It's hard to make a creature keep its attention focused on you when there are easier targets doing lots more damage to it, which seriously undermines your tanking aspirations. Crusaders don't really get into damage-dealing until you get access to Divine Surge and Flanking Maneuver.
-blarg

Mistwell · Sep 15, 2007

Arkhandus said:
Because the 'attack action' and 'full-attack action' are specific actions you can take, like 'total defense' is a particular action. Maneuvers specifically use a standard action, full-round action, move action, swift action, or immediate action to initiate. Just as casting a spell typically uses a standard action.

They do? I am looking at several that say things like "Melee Attack" as the action listed. How is that not an attack action?

Checking the PHB, it sure doesn't seem clear to me than an "attack action" is strictly an action involving just a normal attack and cannot involve anything else.

Stone Power is very specifically limited to use with Stone Dragon strike maneuvers, and with any 'attack action' or 'full-attack action'.

I am not sure that is how I read it as far as limited to just stone dragon strike maneuvers. Some maneuvers don't involve an attack. Even a strike in theory doesn't involve an attack. However, a Stone Dragon strike, regardless of whether or not it involves an attack, still counts for Stone Power. However, as far as other things, it has to involve an attack action. However, many other non-Stone strikes involve an attack action, which should count as well I would think.

Nifft · Sep 16, 2007

@ Mistwell: The book could be clearer. You should see "Melee attack" listed as the Range, not the action type. Look at Initiation Action to see the action type required. Full attacks are generally NOT compatible with most Strikes (there are a few Strikes which give you full attacks, though).

- - -

Stone Dragon school Strikes are useful for Crusaders, because Stone Power is useful thanks to your Delayed Damage Pool, and the only actions compatible with Stone Power are regular attacks and Stone Dragon strikes.

Cheers, -- N